Dogsey

Ok musher, I've sent you a direct thread with my email address which only you will be able to see ... If the site moderators accept my request.

I will subscribe to dogsey as well though.

Thanx Myra for your help.

Chris, I'm sorry but you are wrong ... With some dogs, mine included, the collar provides a unique opportunity for me to be able to say to Ben in dog - wolf - language "I want you to come to me whenever I call 'Ben! Come!!' "

Because I am 'speaking' to Ben in his own 'language' he gets it ... And he got it instantly. Just think how long it would take to train the level of recall he has now. But with the collar we were able to do this with just 2 zaps ... Uncomfortable they indeed were, surprising indeed, but you could see Ben thinking 'stab me ... Where and when the @@@@ did they learn how to talk to me!'

When we have the time I will try and do a short video on my camera so you can watch in slow motion Ben recalling ... It won't happen, but it would be interesting if he ignored the command and you see how well a dog like Ben responds to a nick. As I say though, it won't be necessary to nick him because he is so obedient.

I am hopeless as explaining what I mean in words, sorry but I am trying!

Jackie: musher is more than capable of speaking for himself, but I believe what he is saying is that in circumstances like mine, he is pro e collar. In other words, with a dog like Ben you sometimes have to be cruel to be kind ... Or put another way, inflict momentary discomfort on your dog for his sake. Musher is saying that this is what being humane is ... Inflicting pain or even death on your dog because it is the humane thing to do. He describes to us how he had to kill his own dog to release him from intense pain and suffering ... This was a humane thing to do, and should be part of of our duties and responsibilities to our pets as human beings.

Musher will doubtless tell you if I have completely misinterpreted what he meant!

But in a nutshell, I think he is pro e collar in the right responsible hands.

My, my, what a lively debate this is. Truly enjoyable. I've seen good posts on both sides of the fence, and have even included what I believe to be sensible posts that favor both sides in the right situation. I just hardly believe in planting ones feet on an issue. Problems don't get solved like that. Even terrible things such as killing, cannibalism, and other horrors often have their place in this world.

I'm not talking about malicious actions, either. Musher did a great job of showing how even horrid things such as death can have a logical and kind thought behind it. Surely an e collar can, as well? That is just my base thought processes. IMO, it can sometimes help people understand your stance on a subject if they can break down the way you think.

They taught all this garbage in therapy ages ago, lol.

It's great isn't it! We are talking here about a very controversial subject and so far it has not descended into a bitchfest.

I'm enjoying it too!

No Gnasher, you are not talking wolf, dog or any other species language. You are employing the nastier side of operant conditioning, ie positive punishment.

We learn with just the same principles. However, I prefer to learn new things with a patient teacher who praises effort rather than one who punishes mistakes when I don't understand the process

OK Chris, my lack of verbal skills have failed, I am never going to be able to put into words exactly what we did and have done and achieved with Ben.

Just out of curiosity, do you have any experience of owning a northern breed? Husky, Mal, Samoyed, Eskimo sled dog etc. etc.?

BTW, I am enjoying our extremely civilised debate ... please don't stop!!

No, but plenty of experience in helping their owners how to train them. They respond just as well to reward as any other dog. They key is to find the motivational reward that turns them on and keep it interesting.

With a strong willed breed, for want of a better phrase, you have to let them think that what you want is their idea

mmmm ... now that IS interesting Chris. They are extremely independent, particularly Mals. I have always wondered whether it is because my dogs have an extra shot of wolf that makes them so different, even from Alaskan Malamutes, who are pretty wolfey.

I will bear in mind what you say ... I need to ponder this before commenting!

Chris .... I understand what you you mean when you say "With a strong willed breed you have to let them think that what you want is their idea".

You'll probably laugh at my experience of using this technique because the dog in question was a Tibetan Spaniel who weighed less than 5 kilos. I still find it hard to believe that such a small dog could be so strong willed and I'd hate to think what she'd have been like if she'd been 10 times the size!

What I couldn't understand was why having been brought up with another dog of the same age and being treated and trained in exactly the same way, my Tibbie at 10 months old was still defiant, willful and determined to do everything HER way! One evening, after a particularly hard day with her, I began to wonder whether if I changed my attitude and way of training, it might make a difference to her behaviour, so I decided to try doing things "her way".

For example, instead of correcting her in my usual manner when she barked incessantly, I'd stand next to her and ask who/what, she was barking at? I spent a lot of time teaching her the difference between vehicles and people to get her used to anything that passed by the gate. When walking her on the leash I let her to choose the route and gave her plenty of time to sniff and investigate. There were lots of other things I changed as well, but I always made sure when she'd (unwittingly) done what I'd wanted her to do she was rewarded with loads of praise.

Within three months she'd changed from a very unhappy, frustrated dog to one that was relaxed and confident, so much so that I could take her anywhere with me, knowing she'd be well behaved.