Dogsey

I agree that this is only somewhat an argument. There have been good posts on both sides. I also agree that in extreme circumstances, I'll do what I think is best, even if it is using an e collar. I don't think you have been cruel to Ben, nor do I think ALL uses of e collars are cruel.

If used right, and this is honesty from actually seeing, you would not know the device was on a dog sometimes if you didn't see it. They are not like prongs, where no matter if the training aspect is being used or not... they look hideously uncomfortable for the dog to have on. It's not as f you're zapping a million volts, or zapping the dog on every count of five.

You can dislike a device and still be real about the issue. There are far worse training methods, including hitting etc. than a mildly used e collar. So while I have, and probably will never use one and don't like them... they really are not as horrible as some people make them out to be, imo.

Thank you Myra, that all makes good sense. I will be quite honest and admit that I hate the damned thing, but it has been the saving of my beloved Ben. Not because we have used the e collar to tell him that if he does not come when called, he will be hurt, but because it has convinced him that we love him, we only want what is best for him and most important of all, he can TRUST us. I don't think he has ever been able to trust any previous owner before - they have either abused him or over-indulged him - both of which for a dog like Ben is cruel.

He NEEDS to know that you are in control of him
He NEEDS to know that you are not frightened of him
He NEEDS to know that even when he barks aggressively at dogs that we pass in the car, we still love him

He gets it now, he truly does. And the tragedy is at 8 years old, I guess we won't have him for so much longer. Weighing in at 45 kilos, we will be lucky to get him much past 12, maybe even into double figures.

I just cannot express strongly enough how savage, wild and unpredictable he was when we first got him. He came within a gnat's whisker of being put down, I will not say on a public forum exactly what he did, but it was more than enough to have him destroyed. But we kept the faith, and here we are now ... all thanks to the e collar.

Gnasher, when I go out with Bunny in her muzzle, people look at me like I am an idiot. People have said stupid nonsense such as can she breathe, how can you do that to her, and insinuated that the muzzle is mean, too. I have heard that leashing dogs is cruel, making them wear collars is cruel, neutering is cruel, implanting a microchip is unnecessary and cruel etc. etc.

My main point is that in a world where there is so much real cruelty, people who press too hard about it when the person is only trying to look out for the safety and well being of their pets should get more of a grip.

Ben and my Jade are fine now, despite their pasts, and the potentially "cruel" tools used to keep them alive and safe are largely responsible for it. You use an e collar when you deem it necessary and Jade is muzzled each time she leaves the yard.

Both done for our own reasons and done in the best interests of the dog. I don't want Jade to bite and get put down, and I know she will in the wrong situation so a muzzle is used. I mean, it's not the end of the world.

Even if Ben only learned because of the e collar, isn't that better than him going off on his own and starting a vicious fight or tearing up his skin or you getting rid of him and his past repeating itself? The big picture needs to be looked at imo.

O bless you darling, you absolutely gettit, don't you? I cannot understand why everybody else can't see this too. No-one knows my dog on this website, no-one has met him, Tawneywolf has met his father Hal, and has bred pups from one or two of his offspring - Ben's full and half siblings. So how can anyone say I have done wrong? I know Ben, as you know Jade, better than anyone else on this planet. You know I love dogs, I know you love dogs ... I know that you would not put a muzzle on Jade unless you deemed it absolutely necessary. You know that Ben has not received about 5 or 6 nicks in his whole life from the e-collar without very good reason.

I just do not understand why people cannot accept that we all know our dogs better than anyone else, and therefore the decisions that we take are in the best interests of the dog.

I am still just gobsmacked that I squirted ear drops down Ben's ear this morning and he just let me, he did not even growl. I am still in shock over this one! You see, even I don't know my own dog totally, do I! I was so pleased with him that I gave him a titbit at table this lunchtime, something I have never ever ever done. Who cares that it will make him pester at mealtimes, if that's the worst thing he ever does, God bless him!

There is not a shadow of a doubt in my mind that had we not used that e-collar, Ben would no longer be with us.

I know CM is not everyone's fave person, but to quote him Ben is a "red zoner" - I think this is a very accurate description of how Ben was, and could become so again so easily if we don't keep him on his toes. Not by zapping him with the e-collar, but ensuring that he is always wearing it when we take him out ... just in case. You can NEVER be complacent with a dog like Ben, you can never say never.

How about changing the subject a bit. What do people think about using electronic (I will not say shock because a properly adjusted stimulus is NOT what most would consider a shock . . . more an annoyance) collars for aversion training. That is, in places where poisonous snakes or Bufo marianis (cane toad) poses a real death threat to dogs, to use e-collars to bring the dog to associate the danger with a very unpleasant thing happening . . . immediately.
Yes, e-collars are abused.
Yes, many dog training tools are abused.
I think too many people are stoked to throw the baby out with the bath without any attempt to look at what is in the bathwater.

How do you train avoidance training to things like snakes with an e-collar?

We don't have the problem here, but I would have thought that you would have to expose your dog to the danger before you could deliver the shock??

As above we don't have such dangers here so the argument is not really relevant to the use and ban of the e.collar here in the UK.

As Chris points out surely you have to expose a dog to the danger for the collar to be effective, plus what happens when the dog steps on a snake, any e.collar training us not going to help in such situations, You say in the same post it's merely an annoyance , the a bit further a very unpleasant thing. The truth is an little annoyance is not going to deter a dog from an objective, a very unpleasant stim/ shock will, that's why they work, they give a dog a very unpleasant shock, it has to to get through any adrenalin based behaviour.

I remember CM using an e collar on Daddy to teach him to stay away from rattlesnakes. It worked instantly. Daddy gave the rattlesnake an extremely wide berth having had a nick the first time when he attempted to attack the snake.

There is nothing you can do of course to avoid accidents, such as a dog not seeing a rattlesnake and treading on it in error. All the e collars and training in the world cannot prevent such an accident.

The point is, that you would have to expose your dog to the snake so that the zap could be given at the exact moment of seeing it.

To deliberately do so would be dangerous for both dog and handler

Yes Chris, that is exactly what CM did, and I don't have a problem with that - in the States rattlesnakes are a very big problem and Daddy was very keen on attacking them whenever he came across one. The very fact that to expose Daddy in this way was the best and quickest way to teach him to avoid these beautiful creatures like the plague. This is why e collars are such an effective training tool in extreme circumstances. There is no time to pussy foot around, you have a problem and you have to solve it NOW.

CM taught Daddy to avoid snakes at all costs - in less than 3 minutes.

We taught Ben to come when we called him - in less than 3 minutes.

It is aversion therapy ... and it WORKS. In extreme cases as these 2 above are, it was absolutely the right thing to do.

If e collars cause such trauma to dogs, then how come my Ben is a completely changed dog? He had more medication put down his ear last night, this time powder applied with a make up brush. Before applying the powder, I used just the brush to stroke him with all over, and then gently put it in his ear and got him used to the sensation of stroking it round the walls of the ear, not down the hole. We then dipped the brush in the powder and applied it with never a twitch, murmur or any sign of discomfort whatsoever. This is a dog who had to have a burly vet, a burly husband and a vet nurse to hold him down, muzzled, whilst I attempted to get drops into his ear. We were all badly clawed and I was nipped through the bars of the muzzle.

It is absolutely extraordinary, I still cannot believe it. It is like the old Ben has been taken away, cloned, and returned to us without all the stroppiness!