Dogsey

ooooooooooo! quite the controversy.
The main point of my earlier post is essentialy that what works for me may not work for y"all and what works for y"all may not work for me.
In my language there are words that cannot be translated into the English Language without being in some instances absolutely, totally bastardized.
Who were the clergy, missionaries and law enforcment agents to think my RedNation Grampa & Nanny to be dumb? My Nanny could speak French, English & her mother's Cree.
My Grampa could converse in French, English, Ukranian and his mother's Ojibway and Learned his wife's Cree.
That is what I think can come close to having an open mind.

If I always had/have all the answers why did my folks send me to school to learn to read or write? Why did I over-consume alcohol? drugs... ....? ...? Why did I go through so many girlfriends only to find what my old people told me was true? The list can go on for years if I wanted to get blatantly humble, open and honest.
Its very obvious there are a host of people that are like me as a teenager and "young adult"(used loosely).
If anyone can look past what appears to be pointless rambling you may see the relation to this discussion thread.

"causes pain ... inherently cruel"
".. training dogs ...humanely .. train...."
Know that I am not intentionally singling out anyone with the quotes. it was merely a convenience because I've noticed a trend that I feel needs to be addressed.
Canis lupus familiaris and Canis Lupus Lupus share 99.8% mitochondrialDNA.
In humble reality they differ very little. When left to their own devices their teaching methogs revert to what their genetic memery dictates. they are not HUMANe. They speak their own language.
I say again,our frail human ego can not seem to comprhend that dogs are not 4 legged, furry little humans.
I have 16 huskies(broad term).
All my life I've been around dogs, coyotes, foxes and wolves as well as a huge host of other animals +++....
Its quite simply just part of my world to be raised within Nature to be a part of it as opposed to being apart from it. I've been raised to observe to survive. They all all speak their own language.
If people have an open mind and not be so ready to defend their own agenda/beliefs by being judgmental there are a lot of teachings even in this short story(or long,long post).

This now(below)may sound horrible to some but in my world is just factual reality. Please recognize that what you percieve as reality isnt necessarily real in my world as is mine to your's. Thank you
If I have a dog that portrays a/n un-acceptable behaviour/s that conventional and sociably acceptable behaviorial alteration methods did not correct, I would most likely to either let Nature take her course dealing with it or take matters into my own hands and help her dispose of the chance genetic propensities may be passed on to future generations.
In closing I wish all to know that few can relate to the respect I have for my huskies. They quite literally provide me with life on more levels than most humans will ever be able to commprehend even with years of reading about it in a book and/or listening to someone else talk about what they think they might have seen.

Not really sure what point you are trying to get across Musher but humane doesn't mean human-like, it just means treating someone or some thing with compassion (sorry if I have misunderstood you!)

Jackie: you have totally missed the point. Ben cannot be a free spirit sadly in today's controlled society. So, to enable him to be able to run free we had to ensure that he had a reliable recall. I wish I could afford to run him in harness but the rig costs thousands of pounds and I just cannot afford it. Therefore I need to be able to let him off the lead safe in the knowledge that I have him under control. Ben understands the e collar, truly he does, which is why he learned so quickly. It is reward and punishment, not through pain but ying and yang ... If you do not come to me when I call you the consequence is unpleasant ... I would address this question to Musher, who has a pack of huskies ... Do you think that I am wrong to put this simplistic question to Ben, who is a low percentage wolf cross and supremely intelligent, if you run off and ignore my command to come, you will experience a short sharp shock ... ? I think this is why the e collar is so successful with Ben, he truly gets it, he understands.

Had you not had the e-collar, what would you have done with Ben? Serious question as you say you could never consider keeping him on a lead or long line, can't afford to run him in harness etc?

azz, I think what musher is trying to say is that to use the word humane in connection with dogs is a bit of a misnomer ... Because dogs are not human, they are basically wolves ... As demonstrated by their mitochondrial Dna being almost exactly the same as wild wolves. Ipso facto are dogs are still effectively wolves, despite a hundred thousand years of domestication. They think like wolves, not as little humans, not as little fluffy human pets, but as the virtual wild wolf from which they have descended.

Chris ... That is a very interesting question ... Because I think we would have been in an impossible situation. We had a dog who had been badly abused in his first home, then we'll looked after but savaged seriously by a fellow family dog and then indulged and allowed to get away with murder. When we took him on nearly 4 years ago he was a complete and utter mess. Vicious if you tried to stop him doing what he wanted to do, fine with kids but a wild child with a total lack of discipline. He needs to run, bearing in mind his recent wolf genes and husky and malamute input, but no way could we afford a rig with harness, so we had to train a reliable recall. We consulted with a couple of local dog behaviourists / trainers, one who said he should never be let off the lead and the other mentioned e collars.

We have nearly 20 years of wolf crosses, including a short spell when we fostered a 9 week old wolf cross Czech wolf dog - mother was pure wolf, dad was the cwd. He lived with until he was 4 months old and we took him everywhere with us and he slept in our bedroom. Without bragging I personally think that had Ben ended up with most other people he would have been put down. You really do need to be very different to deal with a dog like Ben ... And you need to be able to think outside of the box and be bloody, bold and resolute and do things that you would never have thought possible.

Chris: I've answered your question, honestly and truthfully, are you not interested in the answer?

. I hadn't seen it. Unless things come up on new posts, I tend to miss 'em.

What did the other behaviourist/trainer advise and what other measures did you try.

As I remember it, wasn't it just one particular field that you were worried about because at various times of the year it had sheep in it?

How long ago did you start using the e-collar?

No probs Chris, I understand!

I am struggling to remember now what sparked off (no pun intended!) the e-collar issue. It may have been when Ben leaped over the fence in our back garden, into the field (which then was under crop with set-aside) and attacked the next door neighbour's black labrador. I think though it was triggered by the fact that he was running off (not running away, just going too far away to have control over him) and not responding to the command to "come". We now have sheep at the back of our house where crops used to grow, but we first used the e-collar long before the arrival of beef cattle and then sheep - it is very likely that we were concerned about Ben around sheep, not because he chases them, he does't, but if a farmer observed him running through or near a field of sheep he would think the obvious. Tai, now deceased, definitely was a sheep chaser, but Ben is not.

I remember we consulted two reputable local dog behaviourists, one of whom was into reward-based training which I have to say was never going to work for us because Ben is raw fed and I certainly would not want to carry around a pocket full of liver or meat ... in any case, food does not trip his trigger particularly. The other trainer I really cannot remember too much about, except their recommendation was an e-collar.

I cannot remember time-wise how long ago it was - it must have been at least 2 years, but could be more. There is a thread on here that I started after we achieved so much success with Ben in an extremely short space of time ... if you searched for all threads started by Gnasher you will find it I'm sure.

You don't seem to be interested at all in what I have put in my answer, only in what the two behaviourists said ... this is not important, what is important is what happened and where we are now with Ben. I'm not interested in the past, only the future.