Dogsey

To me it is very relevant because I was trying to understand your standpoint of the e-collar.

It seems like you dismissed the reward trainer's advice out of hand? Food rewards are possible for dogs fed a more natural diet. Is cheese out? What about liver/meat dried out in the oven? Toys, games, play are all available for rewards.

I seem to remember the fence jumping incident coming after the e-collar - maybe I'm wrong.

I've always had the impression from your post past and present that you never gave kinder training a chance which is such a shame because intelligent and driven dogs respond wonderfully to it

Just because they are not human does not mean we can't or shouldn't treat them with compassion.

In fact it is more a reflection on us, than the receiver. We behave like the evolved humans we are - not like wild animals.

Azz: I absolutely agree with your first statement - my own personal belief is that cruelty to a dog is in many ways worse than cruelty to a child. At least that child can speak up for himself, or if he can't for some reason, the abuse he was suffering would be discovered (I don't want to go off track here, bearing in mind Baby P (Peter) and the other tragedies that have occurred).

We are not the only animal who evolves ... every living entity on this planet evolves. From viruses and bacteria, everything is constantly evolving, including us of course. We are animals, just the same as a wild wolf, a wild tiger or a wild ape. We like to think of ourselves as being "civilised", but I don't think we are any more civilised than most wild animals ... look at what is going on in the world, ranging from muslim killing muslim, to the blatant destruction of our planet by one species ... homo sapiens. With all our knowledge, all our so-called culture, we are STILL doing nothing to curb our numbers, to limit our population to one child per household, two at the very most. We literally sh*t on our own doorsteps (metaphorically speaking), something that most intelligent animal species would not contemplate.

We are nothing special as a species at all and the planet would survive indeed thrive without us.

You think that by using an e collar a few times on Ben is cruel ... I think that NOT to do that would have been cruel, spineless and doubtless would have condemned him to a very long and painful death.

Chris: you could well be right about the timing of the e-collar, I really honestly cannot remember. For the past 13 years our lives have been filled with illness, death, tragic accidents, God knows what we have had more to cope with than most - but I am not whingeing or feeling sorry for myself, merely stating fact.

Anyway back to the e collar. Chris, I am an intelligent person, if I try something with my dog and clearly it is not working, then I will try something else, not keep on flogging a dead horse!

Once and for all, can I please categorically state that Ben is not interested in reward-based training, it quite simply does not work for him. He is not interested in titbits ... you could have waived a piece of raw liver at him pre e-collar and he would still have ignored you. He is not interested in toys, balls or any other play item when he is out and about - he loves playing ball in the house or the garden, but when we are out in his natural element he could not be less interested in balls. The only thing, unfortunately, that works with Ben is reward and punishment. It is the only language he understands. The e-collar in a very short space of time, with only very few nicks, taught him to come when he was called. From memory, I think we had to use the vibrate more often, but with the nicks, just 2. His reward is huge praise and to be allowed to continue to run free again. Were he not to come back on command, then he would be put back onto the lead for some time, and then re-released. If he failed to obey a second time, then he would most definitely get a nick, but this has never happened, so I am only talking supposition here.

He is allowed to get up on the furniture - he has his own sofa - he is allowed to get up on our bed in the mornings when we are drinking our tea. He has free run of the house and garden, and he runs for miles every day off lead, ranging up and down as dogs do whilst we walk along. He never ever goes out of sight, but in fact always stays within 20 feet of us. He is extremely obedient now, which bearing in mind his breeding is exceptionally good.

We did give the "kinder" trainer a chance, it just simply did not work, as we knew it wouldn't, but we did try. Maybe Ben picked up on our negativity, but I don't think so because the trainer would take Ben out round the set aside at the back of the house alone, as well as with us both.

Finding the reward can be the most difficult part of training, but there is always one that works .

I guess it's back to where we started, ie we will have to agree to disagree on the collar issue

We have found the reward Chris. Ben's reward is to run free, not to be confined to a leash.

I have had wolf crosses for over 15 years, they are not the easiest of dogs to train, but I think we have done a pretty good job firstly with Hal, who was a fairly high % cross and very wolfy - aloof, didn't care about pleasing you, did not like being cuddled or caressed, but was incredibly loyal to us, his pack. Tai was the best behaved, but he came with a few issues which we very quickly sorted out. Ben was just an absolute nightmare, but we have turned him around, he is a joy and a pleasure to own. We are even making some improvements with his DA ... we are thinking that a lot of it was due to him being in pain with the perianal fistulas - he is about 50% better now with other dogs, and really we have done nothing different, he is just feeling better in himself bless him.

I've also had wolf X's for years. 25 years on May/15/2014 to be exact. I've found them to be much more intelligent than domestic K9. Unlike domestic K9 they do not respond to "normal" stimuli "normally". I have had to be ready and willing to deviate from what may be consideraered "acceptable/normal" in todays oft times complacement and/or apathetic thought prcesses/mannerisms/beliefs. Lucky for me I grew up in a world where "normal" wasnt normal.
What I see people referring to as "normal today" will get me very dead in my world, especially if we think we are undoubtedly right.
side story coming here.......
Autumn 93, pack of 9 wolves..3 spring babies..1@2nd fall.. 2@3rd fall.. mom&dad.
The female of 2@3rd fall would not quit stealing food from the babies because she got away with it all last year and all this year. 1@2nd fall and mom&dad killed her. The pups survived and the next spring saw 6 new babies. They all lived through to mid winter where extremely deep snow and low prey numbers saw the demise of the smallest male pup.
Today this pack still has 9 members. Mom&dad are long dead.
Story 2...
Hunting bear in 97.. I got attaked.. 2 of my dogs attacked the bear... guts hanging out. I carried them 5 miles..only 14 miles to home. 1 died in my arms.. shot the other after he tried to follow me dragging half his vescera.. after I put in a shady spot to die comfortably. I bled all the way home but I made it.. thanks to my dogs and thanks to my intestinal fortitude to put a beautiful loyal protector out of his misery. He wouldve died trying to drag his guts home and I was too weak to carry him anymore. He didnt look at me with hate or self pity or malice or fear.
I still get tears in my eyes.

My point is what we as humans consider compassion would've starved the pups of 93 & 94.
It also would've robbed my children of their father.
Whats good for the goose is not neccessrily good for the gander.
If that don't hit a cord perhaps....
"There is only 2 ways to think about soething. There is only 2 ways to feel about something. There is only 2 ways to see something. There is only 2 ways to hear something. There is only 2 ways to do something. A wrong way or my way"
Gnasher is so right. We spew "compassion" and we are the only biological entity to absolutely destroy.

I was raised to tell stories to teach but......????????

Musher - I could chew the fat with you for ever, with the exception of hunting bear, (unless hunting for food or survival I am very anti-hunting for fun) you plough the furrow in life that I would have loved to do.

Aside from that, you are totally right. Compassion does not have to come pain-free ... you had to kill your beloved dog because he was in pain, in the full knowledge that he had saved your life most likely. Your dog understood that, he willingly attacked the bear to save your skin, that is what your dog was genetically primed to do over the hundred thousand years of wolf domestication. In return for a spot by the fire, and the scraps from the cooking pot, wolf became domesticated and his genes of loyalty to the pack carried over into the dog. All for one, and one for all.

Us humans have strayed far too far away from nature, and too many of us have forgotten or ignore the animal inside us all. It's not so bad, because it is what gives us courage - to fight for justice both physically and mentally for example. With Ben, we had a massive problem. He had to run free, he could not be contained to a life on the lead. We could not afford to run him in a rig, these cost far too much money. So we had to train him to have a good recall. We trained him to have an excellent recall using an e-collar just TWICE set to give a nick, not a shock, just a nick, no more painful than a prick with a needle or a stab with a finger. Ben, being a northern breed (mainly Mal, bit of husky and wolf), instantly understood this method of control - I won't call it punishment, perhaps correction would be a better word. He "got it" almost instantly. Reward-based training just does not work with Ben.

End of problem. Ben now runs free, and we are safe in the knowledge that if a black labrador suddenly appeared out of nowhere, he will instantly recall, and if by some awful chance he did not, a nick of the electric collar will instantly bring him back to us before he has time to do any damage. This is extremely unlikely to happen in fact, because we only let him run free where it is very rare to meet anybody, but also where we can see for a very long way in each direction.

Now here is an interesting story. Last night, Ben woke us in frantic distress and obvious pain with his right ear. A couple of years ago, he got ear mites which resulted in a haematoma and we took him to the vet for Canaural ear drops and treatment. He was like a wild animal when we tried to get these drops in, he had to be muzzled and pinned down and he still was extremely savage with his claws and his teeth. At 4 am this morning, OH had the bright idea of relieving his suffering with some tea tree cream. That dog allowed me to put my gloved finger right down into his aural cavity and rub tea tree cream all around. Pre e-collar I would have lost my hand! He never even growled, he completely trusts us now. We stayed awake with him until about 7 am and then went back to sleep. He is now lying asleep peacefully with OH on our bed!! He has also started to show interest in his bottom again, so when OH comes downstairs we are going to put some diluted iodine on and around the area and I most certainly am not going to have to muzzle him I am sure.

This is just a huge breakthrough for us - we eventually after nearly 4 years have gained Ben's trust. Why? Because we have taught him and shown him how much we care by solving his one remaining problem ... his recall. We have demonstrated that we are true pack leaders, alpha and beta male and female, and he can trust us with his life. We have demonstrated that despite his immense strength, his savagery when having painful things done to him, we love him and although we are not as strong as him, we can for his own good make him better.

We have just jumped our final hurdle I truly believe. Thanks in the main to the e-collar.

Thanx Musher for a most interesting post! I love your stories, keep them coming.

Amongst all this waffling on about "free spirit and humanity" it seems in the 3/4 years you first used the e.collar you still need to rely on it to stop Ben running off....... that does not spell success to me, it says you have to rely on it "just in case" Ben decides to ignore you. what has Ben learnt in the years you have owned him, nothing as far as I can see , because you still need to use the pain to control him.

Musher.... very interesting reading, but to be honest, I miss your point completely.

My guess is you live a completely different lifestyle to most of us here, that comes across in your "stories" about killing bears and dogs, and living in the wilderness, but forgive me if I missed your view on using an e.collar on a domesticated dog,

I agree humanity is cruel, we see it every day from all over the world, we as humans are our own worse enemy , but we are straying into a complete different debate there.