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Tassle
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07-06-2009, 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Jackbox, I couldn't agree more, but the fact remains that the fence was there in the form that I described - and you seemed to be casting nasturtiums at the accuracy of my statement. I took umbrage at that, I must say. I accept entirely that the farmer was/is out of order, but an apology is in order I feel Up to you, but it would be appreciated.

I have been riding off and on since I was 11, and have experience of battery operated electric fences. I would think that the shock one gets off one of these is equivalent to an e-collar on the very highest setting. It will not do any harm at all to a dog, however it would be very alarming at the least because the dog would not be "ready for it" or aware of what it was.
The guy I was working with at the time tested the collars on himself...he could not stand to go higher than just over 1/2 way, he did once and hurt himself.

I think you will find that they give quite a hit (although it is dependent on the brand.)
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Gnasher
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07-06-2009, 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
Gnasher this isn't the case with snake aversion. They use the highest levels which are extremely painful.

The other way is not all people are led to believe either, and can cause problems esp. with pet owners, but haven't the energy to go into it all now...

Wys
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We would need to get confirmation from Trouble, but my recall of this episode is that Cesar had to turn the device up to about mid way, no higher than that, to ensure that Daddy gave the snake a wide berth.
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Gnasher
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07-06-2009, 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by Tassle View Post
The guy I was working with at the time tested the collars on himself...he could not stand to go higher than just over 1/2 way, he did once and hurt himself.

I think you will find that they give quite a hit (although it is dependent on the brand.)
Fair do's, I have no personal experience of them at all, only going on what little I know about them. That does sound very painful. If you have ever touched an ordinary battery operated electric fence, I personally find that they give you quite a belt. But others can grasp hold of the tape for a dare and although it hurts, it is bearable. I think pain is relative. I am a wimp, so probably not a good example !
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Gnasher
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07-06-2009, 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
The bold bit and the italic bit Gnasher.

If CM does take his dogs in the countryside where Snakes are, why did he inflict a collar on just one? An elderly, well behaved animal that he does most of his "work" with? Surely he has 40 odd other dogs that require "teaching" also? Or does he only take one dog? Its wrong Gnasher, whichever way you look at it, there was absolutely NO need for that poor dog to be zapped on several occasions just so CM could prove a point, he never used it on the dogs that were at risk, and by your own words his other dogs go into the "countryside" (which incidently I dont believe) so why wasnt a more younger, bouncy, "at risk" dog used instead of a well behaved elderly one?
I don't think he did inflict it on just one. Trouble reminded me that there were several of Cesar's dogs - I think Popeye the pitbull was one of them - who showed far too much interest in the rattlesnake. I think for the sake of the programme, Daddy was used at the filmstar as it were. The implication being that the other were subjected to similar treatment, but I really don't know, I am guessing at that.

You continue to cast doubt on the fact that CM takes his dogs out into the "countryside" ? I think for countryside, we have to read "scrub" or desert, but for the sake of the argument lets say countryside. You obviously know him very well BD if you can categorically say what he does and does not do with his dogs. I think it is presumptuous in the extreme to cast doubt on what he does or not do with his dogs without finding out the facts first.
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Gnasher
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07-06-2009, 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by Moobli View Post
Depends where you live We have quite a few up here unfortunately. Also, my sister's unfortunate Spinone has been bitten 3 times by an adder. She lives in Cumbria.

Personally, even though I would use an ecollar as a last resort for a life-threatening problem, I wouldn't use one to scare a dog away from adders.
Fair point Moobli, neither I would I. But I definitely would if we had pit adders or rattlers in this country.
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Gnasher
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07-06-2009, 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
Molly a blue heeler was obsessed with chasing tyres. By the age of 18 months she had already lost an eye and had her lower jaw pushed into the upper jaw as a result of her obsession, Her owners had tried and e collar the previous year, it worked temporarily. The collar was too big and the corrections she received as a result were somewhat hit and miss. They didn't use it consistently and gave up on it.
CM supplied a new properly fitting collar.When she moved towards the tyres she was zapped, she turned away by the end of the day it was being used on the lowest vibrate level for Molly to get the message. Before leaving them he drove past on the combine harvester while she lay down and ignored it.He left them with instructions to keep the collar on for 3 months using the lowest vibrate setting should she ever show any inclination to go back to her obsession.
Sounds good to me
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Wysiwyg
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07-06-2009, 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
We would need to get confirmation from Trouble, but my recall of this episode is that Cesar had to turn the device up to about mid way, no higher than that, to ensure that Daddy gave the snake a wide berth.
Mid way is pretty painful on some of them. Aversion training means a real painful experience, so bad the dogs have a one-off learning situation because it's linked to their very survival.
If he used a mid way level, that was perhaps him being "kind" to Daddy but it's lower than is usually used as they want max impact.

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Wysiwyg
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07-06-2009, 04:53 PM
Re the chasing - vet check may be necessary as some dogs will chase due to problems in the neurological department for example - not common but I know of a dog who had a tumour which had him chasing sheep.

Secondly, it is a welfare issue - any dog hardwired to chase literally has to chase something somehow, to deny it that is unfair and a welfare issue.

So any dog that is stopped from chasing one thing needs to be redirected to a new target (even if it's only chasing toys thrown by the owner in quality games).

Just stopping a dog with no redirection isn't good for the dog ...

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Gnasher
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07-06-2009, 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by mishflynn View Post
I did not! i just said what methods CM uses.

Id prefer to have a dead dog that had had a brilliant life full of trust & patnership with me with 100s of happy memories.than a live scared robot with 15 years of bullying . I can honestly say that

Im NOT saying anyones dogs on here are Scared robots , but that is what CM produces imo, on his show.
Not specifically m'dear, but the implication was there, seeing as I use most of CM's methods !

I agree with your second paragraph. But I do not live with a scared robot, I live with a dog who now knows how to behave in all situations (except for my parents' 60th wedding anniversary celebration lunch yesterday, during which Tai broke wind not once but twice with such intensity that a temporary halt on the proceedings was announced whilst the room was aired !! Luckily my family are VERY dog friendly, so no harm done !!), whose manners are exemplary, and who I cannot praise highly enough quite frankly. We have only had him for just over a year, and he is now 6. Using CM's "cruel" methods, I turned him round within hours. And no credit to me, I am just the messenger
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Gnasher
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07-06-2009, 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
Yes, for snake aversion training (or any aversion training as far as I know) the dog is subjected to the very highest levels of ecollar which is extremely painful.

If it is to be done (and I disagree completely with it, as my view is that if we can keep toddlers away from snakes without using pain, them we can also do it for dogs, right?) then the dog has to learn not only about snakes visually but also scent and something else. Ie one shock may well not be enough and I believe is not trained in this way either by those who offer the snake aversion training.

There was an agility dog who immediately learnt to associate crowds with pain (because they were shocked on high as a group were training their dogs in this snake aversion system) and yet the poor animal still died from snake bite months later because the owners sadly put their faith in the training with shock collar.

I love my dogs and would never subject them to this because it can go wrong, and it can give false sense of security. I walk in the Forest where we have plenty of adders (which can kill although not often) and simply use vigilance and common sense and avoid certain areas.

Wys
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Another good post Wys, with much food for thought. Knowing my dog though, I still think were we to live in an area populated my lethally venomous snakes, I may well have to resort to the expert help of someone who knew how to train with an e-collar.
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