Experience of repeatedly seeing the results of this type of punishment has taught me that using them can and often do have unexpected side effects that can not only be dangerous to the handler, but can cost a dog it's life. To use these types of punishments takes exquisite timing and a good knowledge of dog behaviour to know when and where to apply them as well as knowing how to work through the underlying issues (the cause). There are very few people who have this combination and certainly extremely few owners whose dogs are presenting problems that have the combination (if they did, they wouldn't be seeking help). So, am I the arbiter of what can cause harm? NO! but working with other people and their dogs, I have formed opinions and reached my own conclusions.

Education has taught me that research and discussion is the best way to help us to continually improve in what we do. More and more research is being carried out into learning theory and as the results of that research is published, we can start to learn from it.

Am I saying I am right and you are wrong - no I'm not because, as in all things in life, we simply don't know. We can only form opinions based on both experience and knowledge. To date, my experience and knowledge has led me down a path where I feel that positive punishment is a very dangerous tool.

nope think they use a clicker these days I have to say I find that new dog owners can do far more with this method than with others, its a great intorduction for training and helps the owner gain confidence which will help should they decide to try other methods with there dogs,

One thing I do find a bit strange in most trainers is there inablility to say I DONT KNOW,
I have came across dogs that I just cant figure out, but rather than botch in there and make a bad situation worse I say sorry I dont have the answer to this, but will do all I can to find it for you, I often find myself calling breeders of some breeds I have little or no knowlage of and asking questions, you may know dogs but all breeds have there own traits,.
When rose first came to the club she had me stumped, I could have went for the heavy handed approach, her behaviour was so ......... strange I asked megan and her mum to get her checked at the vet before I seen her again to make sure there was no medical reason for it, they did this and rose got the all is fine,,,,on many a night at training I have said " I dont know why she did this or that," and I often felt I had not done enough for her, time has helped, but I guess where megan says " some trainers would have said take that loony out of here " "I could say they have stuck with me even though the improvement is slow and often frustrating for them"
I just wish other trainers would admit it when they dont know rather than bashing on and often making dogs even worse, IT'S NOT SHAMEFUL TO ASK OTHERS WHEN YOU DONT HAVE THE ANSWER,

Very true Dougiepit

It helps to have a network of friends who are trainers and/or behaviourists, as then, if one is not sure, the owner can always be referred on.

10 years ago, I'd not have attempted to help with an aggression case, in case I made things worse. It's not fair to experiment on dogs and owners!! I found there were plenty out there though who were willing to do so.

Now I have helped owners with aggression cases, but would still refer an owner on if i wasn't sure as, at the end of the day, we could be talking about a dog's (or even human's) life.

One case I will never forget was that of a rescue GSD, at the local club. Aggressed towards humans but didn't bite, just very gobby. Wanted to make strangers go away. The trainers used check chain, and threw beanbags to "stop" the dog. When it was quiet, they allowed it to go on social walks.

Terrible mistake. The dog was in no way cured - they had stopped the symptoms but not the cause. They had even made humans more scarey by their attempt at training

The dog attacked a waitress on his second social walk, as he lay beside a table at a beach cafe

This was purely the fault of idiot trainers who knew nothing about how to work with problem behaviour, and who thought that repressing it meant the dog had stopped feeling aggressive.

Now, if they had referred on to the excellent behaviourist in our area, the result I am sure would have been very different.

Wys
x

WELL AT LEAST i KNOW WHAT +r MEANS NOW, we do it all day long eery day. Anyway I went to that kind of training, im sure she meant well but as soon as my pup (then) got to about 8 months all the work went out the window, no matter how patient I was it just got worse and worse and I simply could do nothing with him off the lead.
i did not plan on goings walks through the feilds with my dog on a lead for all his life, efore we ghot him, afterwatching a few bits and peices of DB i took on a diferent kind of trainer sometyhing like those on DB (a bit boring now but usefull them).
Basicaly it amounted to about 4 weeks of long lead work,and within 5 weeks he was off lead again, we just built up distractions in that period and tugged the lead when he ignored us for the distraction, soon enough he was paying attention to us abnd eventualy that got him off lead and with very good (I am very proud) recall. If your happy enough with a dog kept on a lead because they wont come back fine, i was not and wanted him running around in the woods and feilds.
So, although i did not do the real DB i think i did something similar, next dog after both experiences I will go back to the trainer who got the results, my owndog is better off than with what i think was +R, thats my side of things.

I sadly see many trainers who do similar things, when I see dogs growl, or become vocal, if the owner gives the dog a telling off I explain that if they take the only way a dog has of warning people.,/other dogs away by correcting it the only move it has after that is to bite, its plain common sence if you think about it, that old saying" he just flew for it with no warning " can often be the result in this type of correction, I also tell them that dogs do nothing without a reason, there is always a reason for everything they do and once they know the reason then the work can begin,,,,I hate seeing shaker bottles used of fear aggressive dogs and there has been a lot of it since dog borstal, some people see them on tv and think ok I will use that, sadly the dont know what type of aggression there own dog has, some only think its aggressive and dont realise there are several different types of aggression,
shona x

Dougiepit, you are so right about how to handle different types of aggression.
My black staffie bitch was a rescue at 18 weeks - broken eye socket, eye hanging out, fractured jaw. She had basically been used as a football. As a consequence..... she HATED mens feet! For the first 16 months of her being part of our family (dogs and kids) she would attack all male feet, but she is only a tiny thing (starved as well!) so fortunately doesnt have the jaw strength of an average staffie. But in every other way she was/is shy and nervous. It was so obvious to us that smacking her or shouting at her was absolutely not going to cure her of this behaviour, she was doing it out of abject fear. (Getting in first before it got her!). What we did do over many months was to enlist the help of our teenagers' male friends. We assured them that her bite would not go through their shoes (never did) and whenever they came in to our house asked that they didnt react in any way to her but just calmly kept on walking and doing whatever while she attempted to chew their feet off! Slowly but surely she accepted that male feet in her house or garden were no threat to her. She is now nearly 5 and she shows no aggression to feet at all anymore. She is still a shy and nervous girl though.

It is so important to find out whether fear, dominance or confusion is causing your dog's aggression, before you attempt any retraining.

Yes, yes, yes.
I`d like to add that food intollerances and medical conditions are often direct causes of aggressions so should be assessed and dealt with also before attempting any aggression specific training.

Personally, I think the dogs improve through fear.
They comply because they don't want to have a bottle being shaken at them and they don't want to be yanked around by the collar.

In the first series, I was doubtful dogs did improve. Examples are the white gsd, who already knew the camera team so would have been more relaxed with them when they came the second time, and also the barking yorkies who were shown in a field totally devoid of any other dogs There were a couple of others but I can't remember the details.

Some of the "after" bits we saw, it appears the owners had started training with other trainers (eg the beagle type Bertie was being clicker trained and looking totally fabulous!) and one dog who appeared very reactive was being handled totally differently ... being fed food rewards, which I don't think we see on DB.

Wys
x

I didn't answer properly last night as I was called away form the pC so I'll do it now...I had to keep it short yesterday. Sorry...real life got in the way!

Yes...the dog is scared and fearful and so it complies. yes, it could do something else...stand still/try to run/bite...but it doesn't as it is scared of the consequences. That does not mean that it will not try to do that at a later date. the more you back something into a corner...the more likely it is to stand there and then snap out of the blue...

In your opinion we are wrong. In your perception other peoples views are distorted. You should never assume on a forum that people have not seen the things being discussed first hand.
I have to say that you should look at the people who are commenting on this thread. They are certainly not people who are only basing their views on something they have seen down the road or what they have seen on DB. There are people commenting here who are dog trainers with many years of experience behind them, who have done courses, yes, but who have the knowledge and experience to comment on this. They are professionals and can certainly be compared to those we see on DB in that respect. I do not count myself amongst them, I hasten to add, but I do have knowledge and experience behind me too...perhaps just not as much.
But that is exactly what you are doing with Wys, Brierly and Patch to name but 3.
AS for me? Yes I have experience with a lot of dogs in a number of situations. I would never call myself an expert or a professional, but my comments are not driven by the dog down the road, but by situations i have been in.
As I said...fear. I have seen the rattle bottle used (and work ) first hand, but the dog...it was scared...all it's body language yelled 'get me out of here please'. It was compliant...yes....but it was also scared, personally I don't think that is training..but that is just my opinion. :smt002 :smt001