Ive been to crufts and found it kind of boring at the time but dont mind watching it on tv being a student on a college trip we never got to see the actual show. I don't support crufts after a documentry described like dog mentioned in the previous post was shown like how some bulldogs have such squashed noses because someone in crufts declaired they should have more wrinkles which would indeed produce an healthy dog which will suffer for snobbery. Im all for the perfect dog but not at the cost of the welfair for the dog hence im not a crufts fan.

Come on Tassle, the construction is pretty much the same on a decent worker as it is in a show collie, its only a bit of coat that makes the difference in most cases. Some working "Collies" Ive seen, and mainly in the Lakes Im talking here, look like they have Greyhound in them! They have showing rib cages, curly tails, poor temperament (running out and attacking other dogs) and so many have such long legs, they really do look like a collie/grey cross.

Im not getting into a debate over the "changes" you appear to be seeing, but I will say that farmers on the whole have very little concern of what a dog looks like as long as it works, and if longer legs help, so be it, if its kept thinner because it can go faster, so be it!

But that is nothing to do with Crufts.... which is just one show of hundreds if not thousands, held around the country every year.

It's interesting how you got the opinion that Crufts was to blame.... like it was some huge influence all on its own that made people squash their dogs noses in?

Shows your lack of knowledge on showing.

I have. I've been to a few trials over the past year and must admit, I've been really surprised by the looks of some of the dogs. The most noticable were two fully black dogs. One looked more GSD than WSD and the other I thought was a lab cross.

They've all done the job though.

Oh dear.

Ok, i have read up until page 38 and i will read the rest later. I am about to pop out with Jake, but wanted to quickly post some questions before i forget them... these are genuine questions btw.

Why have some breeds developed working and show lines?

What do people think their dogs enjoy about showing?... not just being with them etc, but specific about showing...

I'm sure there was more questions, will try and think when im out with the loon

Yes, they might well have. From talking to the farmers round here (who's families go back generations) they've told me that the farmers thought nothing of adding in another breed if they thought it would improve on something in which their dogs were lacking (e.g. speed, staminer, size etc).

This was documentry was to do with crufts and someone had mentioned in a previous post i read that a dog which was eventually picked for best in show had not long before passed out because it ran round the ring -.-

this was a long time ago but its obvious crufts does not care about the welfare of its constestents anymore then the breeders who enter them do. You may get the perfect looking dog at shows like crufts but is it worth the animals health or even life???

You don't have to get into a debate...I expect you see more 'show' type...I see more working types. I do not think the coat is the only difference. ......

And when I was in the lakes earlier this year on a herding course I did not see any that looked like greyhound crosses, I did however see lots of smooths and yes - you could see their ribs as well. Just reminded me of my first BC.

ISDS BCs tend to have longer legs, or should I say show bred BCs tend to have shorter legs as that would really be the correct way to state it - they are still recognisable as BCs to me, they just don't all look exactly the same.