I did read your thread fully before I commented and I don't consider myself arrogant or ignorant, (if your comments were directed at me).

Dogsey is an immensely friendly site to belong to but you must understand that many of the members work in rescue so they see first hand what happens when people breed just because they fancy a pup out of their bitch...they may well keep one or two out of the litter but then the others have to find homes...it sounds like you did your research on the mix of the breeds, but that doesn't take away the possibility that one or both of the dogs involved in your case could well be affected by a known defect within the breed, and the only way to tell with a lot of these defects is by health screening/testing by a vet. Some of these defects don't show up, some dogs can carry epilepsy in their lines but not be effected themselves, eye problems can be carried but not necessarily show up until a later date, when it's too late because you've already used the dog/bitch in your breeding program,

We definately aren't breed snobs, just because I chose to breed English Setters doesn't mean I haven't had mongrels or won't have another in the future, I think it's more likely that you'll find we are caring dog owners, many of whom have been involved in rescue and, although it isn't your fault there are dogs in rescue, the fact that you are breeding on a whim doesn't sit well with us that do test our dogs before even contemplating having a litter.

We are intelligent people who are passionate about dogs and sometimes our typing fingers run away with what we want to put across, we don't always do it as politely as we could but some of us, (not me), see rescue dogs being put to sleep every day because someone, somewhere thought it would be a good idea to have a litter.

Wow, how insulting you are to pedigree dogs and their owners... so I along with many owners have freaks? Your pups are lovely to look at and you may have researched to your hearts content, but you never health tested did you? Did you have homes lined up before you bred the bitch? Or was it really down to the fact you fancied a puppy and saw £ signs? If you are passionate about crossbreed pups (and no, I am not a snob either, I like a good ole fashioned mix myself) then call them what they are... they are collie X springer.. not 'Sprollies' ....

Excellent post Sheree.

They are lovely looking pups. My dog Mia totaly loves dogs of these crosses cos they are as daft and as fast as her
I have to say I dont agree with deliberatly creating crossbreeds when there are so many dogs in rescue at the moment. - then again I am pretty much against breeding full stop when there are animals dying in rescue.
But the pups are here now, they look lovely and you are obviously very happy and proud of them so I am no going to say any more on that.
Welcome to Dogsey, I hope you stick around and see how nice was all can be really, just have strong views on certain issues

Funny that, but most springer's with hereditary problems are from working lines..

And Collies dont suffer any hereditary /genetic problems either (the working lines obviously) , thats good to know!!

I assume you are keeping the two you have left?

rune

From someone who has owned both working and show type Springers I can 100% hand on heart tell you this is poppy cock! Working Springers are far more likely to have health problems because not only are they just as in bred as the show types but the working folk seem to be under the impression just because a dog is fit for function it is fit for life. Wrong! Just because a dog can do the job it is bred for does not mean it won't end up with genetic health problems. I'm afraid you seem very unknowledgable about dogs and genetics, but more so I'm afraid for where these poor pups end up when their owners suddenly realise they can't cope with a dog that wants to herd everything, or a dog that wants to hunt everything - or both! A very irresponsible breeding in my opinion.

I've been thinking about this thread but was unable to edit my last post to add this:

Leon was BAER tested as was the bitch he was mated to, they both passed the test but one pup in the litter was deaf...it can't happen apparently, one parent has to carry the gene but we both have certificates to show that neither of our dogs are deaf, the veterinary college in Newmarket couldn't believe what we told them and could only put it down to a pure fluke. Fortunately, the new owner was happy to keep her pup and no more came of it, but imagine how guilty both myself and the breeder would have felt if we hadn't had our dogs tested and the deaf pup was a result of our ignorance.

I know deafness isn't potentially life threatening, but it could have been something else that one of them was carrying, without our knowledge, I just couldn't live with myself if I had been responsible for helping a pup into the world that had some awful inherited defect because I had buried my head in the sand and thought, well he looks healthy enough so it must be ok!.

This criticism of of my actions here are interesting, how many of you who have criticised me for breeding this litter of 'Sprollies' have criticised pedigree breeders for breeding in this economic environment or because there are dogs in a rescue centre? And if not, why not?

You see from my point of view the implication of these criticisms is that it's ok to breed pedigree dogs because these breeders and dogs are 'legitmate' but the cross breed will end up in a rescue centre because anyone who breeds one is automatically irresponsible and a poor owner/breeder. That, to me, stinks of both arrogance and ignorance, if this is not the case then please correct me, but when doing so tell me why you are specifically directing these criticisms at me.

As for the use of the name 'Sprollie' and not Collie X, well it's the common and popular name for this cross, so I use it, and what is wrong with that? I always make clear they are crossed dogs. Before 1900 collies didn't exist as a breed, but then they got called Collies after an exceptional dog was crossed with another breed and now every body uses the title Border Collie. Lurchers are a popular dog, and a cross breed, but Lurcher is in common and widespread use. What exactly is the issue and, again, why direct this criticism at me?

As for rescue dogs, I own one (a collie jack russel cross) and I would encourage anyone who wants a dog to consider one, as indeed I did before I got my second collie, but as it happens there where no suitable dogs that would fit in with my household and my other dog, so I opted for a pure bred collie from two working dogs, and she is great.

It is a genuine shame there are so many dogs in rescue, but this is not the fault of me or any other responsible breeder/owner, it is the fault of those people who didn't care for their dogs. How many people on here have bought dogs? And if you have bought one why did you not get one from a rescue centre?? I would guess the answer is because there where none that suited you or could fit in with your way of life, because you where worried about their behaviour/health and other perfectly legitimate reasons, this does not make people bad, it if anything makes them sensible people and responsible owners.

Let me tell you, I have done every thing I could do to make sure this litter was healthy, and I'm certainly not going to make any money off them (if anything they have cost me money and yes, the reason for having this litter was because a ex-partner 'wanted a pup', and it was either this way or she spent money on a 'pedigree' dog from a breeder or much worse a puppy farmer. But then that would make the pedigree breeder just as 'irresponsible' as me, right??? (because 'pedigree' breeders aren't motivated by money at all :/)

You should do some more research. The majority of working Springers (by which I mean springers that have been bred and are used to work in shoots etc) have very few hereditary problems, however, Springers are a popular family dog and puppy farmed, these dogs are the unhealthy ones. And the show dogs (being much bigger) tend to get the hip problems as far as I am aware.

And yes, Collies have hereditary problems, and I have never said they didn't (read the thread) what I have said, and consistently point out to all here, is that if you look at any score of dogs with problems, the dogs bred to a specification are the dogs who have the most problems. Fact. The cause of this, poor and inter-breeding. This is a fact. It is also a fact that the more diverse the gene pool the healthier the gene pool, but don't argue this with me, go find a noble prize winning scientist, because they'll tell you the same thing.

So then, just to summarise, why these criticisms of me? Explain why it is ok for pedigree breeders to breed and why my actions are so wrong. Why you have concluded that these dogs will end up in a rescue centre with nothing to back it up, why the use of Sprollie is so bad, and why so many of you lay criticisms at my door and quote common genetic problems when clearly you have done no research into either the conditions or the figures.

I could very well turn round and say you are the irresponsible ones, passing you knowledge as fact when clearly it is not, or pouring scorn on someone who has bred very healthy dogs very carefully and with more time and effort than most would do. But I won't, what I will say to you is this stinks of arrogance and ignorance, but clearly you all care about dogs.

The only legitimate criticism here is that I didn't have both dogs gene/health certified, and I accept that as a valid point, however as I point out I thoroughly checked both dogs and their provenance and both where clear of problems, and both have been seen by vets with no issues. If I thought for one second these dogs would be unhealthy (if they had come from a puppy farm or rescue centre for example) then I wouldn't have had this litter, but they didn't.

There is a saying there is no point arguing with a fool as some can't tell the difference ... This will be my last post on your thread! You have beautiful Springer X Collie pups, but you should have health tested and you have no right to criticise other breeders when you are no better yourself... I hope your ignorance and arrogance doesn't mean those pups grow into dogs marred with genetic health issues