Message for Pod or anyone else interested in genetics

Hi Pod,

Having read the thread on blue eyed dogs and your comments on the genetics on colouring I have found myself wondering about my dogs colour and wondered if you can shed some light on the matter.

When we got Meeka at 9 weeks old she was completely black.

After about 6 weeks, the guard hairs behind her front legs turned white (around the elbow area) which in time has extended along her belly and the inside of her back legs.

Her face and bottom of her legs in turn changed to a rich chocolate brown colour although they do not blend in but look like she has been dipped in chocolate

Now, her chin has turned white

I know that dogs change colour but this seems very bizarre.

Her sister is completely black except for the tips of the hair around her neck which make her look like she has a white collar

Their sire was an inkspot (I think this is the right terminology) NI and their dam was a black and tan GSD. They did have the mothers' brother and he was black with tan legs and eyebrows if that helps

I've tried to get photos of her but she looks all black in them so don't think that they will help.

Hi Chellie!

I remember when you posted some photos of yours a while ago. When this blue eye thread came up, I went back to look at them, as I remembered one of yours as very similar.

I know you're asking about the other one now, but sorry, just got in after a rather long day. I'll be back later on this evening when (hopefully) my brain cells are functioning.

No rush Pod. It's just got me intrigued now

Ok.... solid black from a GSD x Inuit is almost certainly recessive black. This is not the usual black as seen in Labradors, Gt Danes, Poodles etc but a recessive form of the Agouti gene. It's not a common colour in dogs and is confined mostly to a few herding breeds. It does occur in the GSD, so no surprise that the dam carries it and as GSD is also in the Inuit ancestry, quite feasible that the sire carries too.

Recessive black is sometimes pure black, but most often it does have shadings and rusty markings and sometimes traces of tan and this could be what you are seeing in Meeka. Or it could be a form of greying. GSDs in particular, are prone to premature greying and I've seen a rather different form of this in Norwegian Buhunds. Nothing to worry about, it is just the pigment fading.

What is a bit more of a puzzle though is Storm and I did think this at the time you posted the photos of him. He does seem to be the same genotype as Sapphire, so the same comments apply here, but really, you shouldn't be able to get this extreme white from a GSD dam. It would mean that she carries sw (extreme white). The sire does too but that's understandable with Siberian ancestry.

It could be possible that she carries, as it is recessive and could remain hidden in the breed for generations but I haven't heard of any odd occurrences of this type of white in the breed. There is a 'Panda' GSD bloodline in the USA but this is something different.

The other possiblity if that a spot mutation has occurred.

Thanks for this Pod. It really was a mixed litter. there were 2 mainly black, 2 black and tan, 2 were what is now seen as typical Inuit colour, Storm and one that was completely chocolate brown, almost chocolate lab colour

I've often wondered if there is something else in the mix but if there is it seems as though it is only the colour that has come through because the dogs that I am aware of are all very similar in size and shape if not colour.

Yes, I've wondered over the possibilty of a dual sired litter in many instances but not this one, because the anomoly lies with the dam not the sire. I'm sure there could be no confusion over who gave birth to the litter

The brown one also throws a bit more peculiarity on this too. Recessive brown does occur in the GSD but the occurrence is low. There are some breeders who specialise in 'rare' colours, so there are some lines that are more likely to carry than others but on the whole, it is quite rare in the breed.

Does seem odd that this bitch carries two of these oddities. Is there any chance that she may have bloodlines from another breed.

Your guess is better than mine Pod

They weren't bred as designer puppies, they only sold for £100, so if she was from a 'rare colour' bloodline I don't think they were aware of it.

Having said that, I've always had Shepherds and the dam and her brother were very typical although that does not rule out something a couple of generations back.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, it really is interesting stuff. It's a shame that you cannot meet them in 'real life' as it might give you a better idea of the colouring.