Pup questions

As some of you may know we are due to pick up our male yellow lab pup (buddy) in 2 weeks, however he has been diagnosed with a heart murmur and the breeder has said she will not sell a pup with a possible life long condition. She has said we can go on a waiting list until she has another yellow litter or she has offered to sell us the bitch she was planning to keep herself.

We are edging towards taking the bitch but we have only ever had dogs before and are not sure of the main differences apart from the obvious ones and we have to male dogs so is there likely to be any trouble with 1 bitch and 2 dogs.

Before you rush in to any decisions, its worth you getting some professional advice particularly as a murmer does not need to mean anything problematic. For instance :

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[ from Hearty Dog ]

Congenital Heart Diseases

Congenital defects are those that have been present since birth. Thankfully, they are comparatively rare, accounting for only 5% of the cases seen by vets.


Congenital defects will usually cause the blood flow through the heart to become turbulent; making a distinctive whooshing noise that vets can hear using a stethoscope. That's what is meant by a 'heart murmur'. However, if your vet tells you they've detected a heart murmur in your dog, it's not necessarily cause for concern.


Many puppies are born with a slight heart murmur (or puppy murmur) that clears up by itself after 4-6 months. In many cases, vets will simply recommend a later checkup, just to be sure that the condition has resolved itself.


Pronounced heart murmur is quite rare, but may be indicative of a serious congenital defect. However, without specialist experience and equipment, it can be difficult for a GP vet to know what defect is causing the murmur. For this reason, if the murmur is pronounced, or persists beyond puppyhood, patients will often be referred to a specialist cardiologist.

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The site the above piece is from has a cardiology specialist with a phone number to contact him, so there is nothing to lose by calling to see what advice might be available :

Mike Martin MVB DVC MRCVS
RCVS Recognised Specialist
Martin Referrals
Veterinary Cardiorespiratory Centre
43 Waverley Road
Kenilworth
Warwickshire
CV8 1JL
Telephone: 01926 863445
Fax: 01926 863446


Has the breeder said if this pups murmer is congenital or not ?
If it is, they will presumably do the right thing and no longer breed from the line concerned ?
If you dont have this pup, has the breeder said what will happen to him ?

With regards to a girly with two boys, no one can say if it would be problematic or not as there are so many factors. Are the boys well soccialised ?
Are they usually good around other girls anyway ?
Are they entire or snipped ?
Would the girly be spayed ?

What will her character be as she grows ? Of course, there is no way to answer that in advance, any more than it could be predicted what personality the boy will have. Socialisation and experiences are what shape a dogs temperament far more than its genes no matter what any breeder may claim.

Some people say never have two girls together, yet countless pairs of bitches have lived perfectly happily together. Mine do, and my previous pairing of girls [ my Gremlin being in the previous pairing as well as currently ], were terrific together as well. It doesnt mean they all can be perfectly happy, any more than two boys always work, or one of each, but it sheer numbers prove that multiple dogs certainly can be great together, whatever the gender combination.

Might two or more boys squabble with a girl introduced to the family unit ?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
Might three boys be too much for each other ?
Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

Smply put, there is no yes or no answer - anyone claiming there is has blinkers on

I have two girls and three boys, all snipped and spayed, so they have none of the stresses that entire dogs have, but they were not all done when I first got them. The ops certainly made a hugely beneficial difference to them as a group because of the removal of unecessary stressy hormonal activity.

So, I`m afraid no matter what advice you may get on gender groupings, nothing it written in stone about it, so you have to rely on your instincts and how well you can realistically assess what your boys potential reactions may be, whether bringing in the little boy you had planned on, or a girly.

First things first, I would ask for a copy of the actual murmer diagnosis and check in to the possible ramifications of that [ especially as it doent necessarilly mean a long term issue ], because if nothing else, you were planning on having this boy as a part of your family and, though it may not have hit you yet, you may need to take time to sort through your feelings about perhaps not having him after all, before you will know for sure which path to take

I don't know much about heart murmurs in dogs, but it sounds like the breeder is really looking out for what's good for her pups. Why not give her a call and really talk through the differences between dogs and bitches in your chosen breed? I know it varies from one breed to another. She sounds like the kind of person who will want to help you make the best decision all round, even if that means putting herself out.

Ditto everthing Patch said.

In addition, you seem to have found a very honest and generous breeder with high morals. Worth sticking with if you decide to wait for a later litter.

Dawn R.

If you dont have this pup, has the breeder said what will happen to him ? She has said she will keep him on as she has delt with a pup with a heart murmur about 7 years ago

With regards to a girly with two boys, no one can say if it would be problematic or not as there are so many factors. Are the boys well soccialised ? Yes, infact they have more friends than me
Are they usually good around other girls anyway ? Yes, most of dogs they know are bitches
Are they entire or snipped ? Both snipped
Would the girly be spayed ? Yes, as we feel there to many people breed just for the sake of breeding and making a quick few quid

I would go ahead and have the bitch if your other two dogs are castrated and you are going to have her speyed anyway so coming into season won't be a problem. Bitches are lovely and very faithful and I have met some lovely Labrador bitches on my walks, they always seem calmer than the males for some reason.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

Excellent, then that takes a worry factor out of things for you because you know he has a positive future either way

I know the feeling


An excellent basis on which to consider if a girly may fit in well with them
Good good, thats even more of a benefit if bringing in a girly :smt023

Click and treat to you [ or applause and have some choccies ] Perfect responsible attitude

I know you have some soul searching to do still, because aside from practicalities, the fact remains that you have spent time building feelings toward the little boy and it wont be easy to deal with what you may be feeling. You may even be battling with feelings of guilt or disloyalty toward him - I`m thinking thats a possibility or you would not be in a quandary about what to do - and no one can tell you how to feel but I find separating the heart side from the head side can help.

So a couple more questions for you, which you dont need to respond to here, they are designed to help you consider things for yourself, so please forgive me for them being very difficult questions but better to consider them now than be relevent later :

If the murmer is not the common type which pups grow out of, can you meet any medical and physical needs he *may* have in the future ?

If he stays with the breeder and it turns out a few months on that he is in fact perfectly healthy, can you assure yourself that you wont feel bitter about not having him and can you ensure the girly would never ever be made to feel second best ?

If you had the girly and she was difficult at any time, can you assure yourself that you wont have feelings of ` he would not have been like you` which could interfere with you bonding with her ?


I know they are horrible things to ask yourself, and sometimes people feel bad for coming to conclusions in themselves, but the more you can face, digest, and consider these questions, the more clear a head you will have when you mak your final decision, whichever it may be.

When it comes down to it, whatever you decide has to be whats right for you first and foremost because thats what will shape eveything else later on, be it the boy or the girl, or if waiting for another litter later on.

From the things you have asked and answered already, you are clearly putting a lot of careful thought into it, so both pups are already very lucky indeed to have such considerations made for their futures. I wish all pups got such thoughtfulness !

We have been talking about all the pros and cons for a while now and have come to the decision we will be taking a bitch, one reason being we were getting a dog as that’s what we know and that was fun learning so learning about bitches should be fun as well but we are prepared for all the ups and downs.

Another reason being we consider ourselves very lucky to be getting a pup from such a well respected Labrador breeder and it was a small litter. One more question I have is when we have three dogs they have always been protective of each other an example being one occasion Jake (quite a timid dog) had a dog stood near him growling and snarling and the other two came running over and stood right next to him and did not move until the dog had walked the other way, so while I think they will still be protective of a bitch are they likely to be over-protective as she is a bitch.

Hi i just wanted to say we had a border collie years ago + took him to the vets found out he had a heart murmur + my parents took him back to the breeder + got another pup but we were so upset we went back + we ended up with the two of them but my point is the vet said he wouldnt make it past 6 months old but he made it to 10 years old + died of cancer not the murmur so it doesnt always mean a short or bad life although it can but i cant not see anything wrong with you taking on a little girl i personally dont think theres much difference between boy-girl just depends on the dog really not sex if given a little time i think your lads could take to a girl good luck all best with your new pup