I'm feeling a bit deflated :(

I'm feeling a bit down about everything at the moment and I'm not sure of the best way forward.

I used to be more relaxed with Cain. When I was trying to socialise him myself with other dogs in the park, I would be actively approaching people with dogs and we'd end up having a chat and they'd give Cain a little pet and all was good. Last summer he met a number of strangers and was fine.

Since starting the dog socialisation class (which, don't get me wrong, is a God send) I've become a walking hermit They advise (and it makes a lot of sense) that we avoid all other dogs out on walks. This is for a few reasons. Firstly so he can learn a whole new skill set from the teaching dogs before applying it to unknown dogs in the real world. Secondly they say that he should be meeting all dogs off lead, I don't let him off lead on walks, so as yet it is inappropriate for him to be letting me meet dogs on walks. They says those who stick to this rule tend to progress a lot faster, so I have been actively avoiding direct contact with other dogs in between classes.

I work on on lead calming around other dogs, and he does see them at agility etc, but only gets contact and to interact twice a month at class. He occasionally gets to meet Karly's dogs or his husky friend, but I don't have any other dogs he knows well enough to let him walk with at this stage. I worry this isn't enough interaction to allow him to progress.

It seems to be having a negative impact on his socialisation with humans. I'm now even more tense on walks this summer than I was last year! I try not to be, but it's easier said than done. I find if people try to approach us, I stop several feet away. In avoiding other dogs, I seem to have slipped into the habit of avoiding everyone. If he's on a longline, I reel him in, I don't feel I can trust him to walk past people even though he does ignore them 95% of the time. I get annoyed if places are too crowded (but it's London in summer, of course it's crowded!), I feel annoyed if people are "stupid enough" to walk to close to us (completely unreasonable as it's a public place they have a right to be in and they don't know he has issues). I know my feelings are unreasonable I just want to be left alone on walks and I'm counting the days too rainy winter.

I can't remember feeling like this last year And I'm worried that it is going to be detrimental to Cain's progress with people if I keep behaving like this. He can handle walking past people and ignoring them but I can't remember the last time we stopped to have a chat. I'd be horrified now if a stranger wanted to pet him, where as I was mire relaxed last year and we didn't have any problems.

The last few weeks I have felt worse because of a few minor incidents. The first training session at the vet, she was hand feeding Cain beef without looking at him, he ate for about a minute then he jumped up and lunged at her face There was no trigger we could identify, now we've taken training way back to the beginning where she's sitting on the other side of the room. He was pretty reactive in our first agility class last week and when the new dog trainer came over to meet Cain I was horrified. I let her pat him for like 2 seconds before I called him away out of fear he would react. I wouldn't have felt like this last year and I don't know WHY I feel like this now???? Yesterday we were at a Ttpuch workshop and the practitioner stood next to us, I was doing a touch wrong so she slide up next to us (in what she thought was a non threatening way) and tried to show me. Cain growled and lunged I think this was because he didn't see her coming so I sort of understand it. He is much better with calm, confident greetings when he know contact I'd coming, I think she just surprised him.

But it's all shaken my confidence I know I need to do something to kick start his progress. I think I've fallen into avoidance rather than training and I didn't even realise I had done it. I've lost confidence I wonder if I start muzzling him on walks (I usually just shorten his lead to keep him under control and this has always been sufficient), it would give me more confidence to give him a bit more slack on his lead when walking past people? It's not that I think he would do anything but there's always this little seed of doubt that he might, so I feel happier with him on a shortened lead but then this isn't giving him much of a chance. The muzzle would be for my confidence levels rather than because I really think he'd bite.

I think maybe all these feelings have come to a head because I'm going to meet a toller breeder next weekend with the potential of going on her waiting list. Now this would be for a puppy in 2013/2014, so not for a few years. The breeder also understands it is contingent on Cain's progress and should he not be ready I would have to delay/cancel. However now it's becoming a reality, I feel like I'm totally insane for even considering another dog, even in 2-3 years time, when I'm feeling like this at the moment

I have a bit of an action plan. I remember some good advice C&D gave me once before when I felt that we were regressing, she said "are you walking, or are you training?" and I think we've fallen into the trap of simply avoiding and walking. Now I've recognised it, I can address it. I am going to re-read James O'Heare's dog aggression workbook again and start working through it properly, I'm going to buy myself a copy of Control Unleashed and work regularly on those exercises in there. I am going to makes sure I stick to Ttouch now and do it on a daily basis, I heard enough anecdotes yesterday to convince me that it's worth a try. I an toying with the idea of putting his DAP collar back on (we removed it to see if it was helping him or not) but I am unsure how much help it still is and I don't want to put it back on as a knee jerk reaction.

I have our second agility class later today and I really need to shake off this frame of mind and get more positive quickly or it's going to be a disaster.


But I always thought I would feel more confident this summer, rather than less

Ahhhh, Moon's Mum, you are doing SO amazingly, remember that. Now, this is not the same situation as you but,
I had a similar problem a few months back. We were having one-one-one training with someone really excellent. She helped me enormously.

But... she said that because Dex went beserk with excitement around other dogs, I MUST NOT let him socialise with them off lead UNTIL she had shown me how to manage him and get him behaving more calmly.

I followed her advice but as the weeks went by, I noticed that when we were out walking, Dex was becoming more and more reactive to other dogs when both met on lead. It got really bad at one point.

I realised that the less interaction he was having with other dogs, the more frustrated he was becoming. So I took the plunge, took him to the park on a busy morning - and let him off leash....

And I did it every day for a week.

By the end of that week, he was calmer around other dogs and was starting to be slightly less reactive when out on the lead and meeting other dogs.

I still think my trainer was right - but the advice was not right for this particular dog and was causing other problems.

Ultimately, YOU are the expert on Cain.

You have to assess whether each bit of training is helping - or hindering.

Hard, I know. But if you feel that something is having a negative impact, then I would be inclined to trust your intuition and your knowledge of YOUR dog!

I'm sorry I can't offer any more specific advice than that.

Also, just to say that I think you are doing a truly fab job with Cain - I always read your posts and I know he is lucky to have such a dedicated mum

I know what you feel like---I have been there. Not in quite the same way but no one's experience is exactly the same.

I think if I were you I would teach him to wear a muzzle. I know you probably think it will put everyone off and 'mark' him as a nasty dog but it will help so much in your attitude to being around other people. You'd be in a lot worse state if he did actually make contact with someone or even a dog. With a lightweight plastic greyhound muzzle you can titbit between the gaps.

I can see what the class is saying and it does make sense but it may not be a good way forward for him or for you. A dog is meant to be enjoyed and walking and socialising may well be a big part of that for you and for him---even though he didn't appear to be gaining from it maybe he was?

Good luck and don't be too disheartened.

rune

Just a thought, but would it be an idea to use a muzzle so that you can allow people to come closer to Cain? Even if it just relaxed you a bit, to know he could not bite, it would be good as if you are calmer, Cain may be that bit calmer?

Just a thought.

I honestly do not think that any owner could do more for their dog than you.



edited to add:


Just read RUNE's post and seen that he has also suggested trying a muzzle. RUNE is far more experienced than I am so if they are also suggesting this, I think it's really worth a go MOON'S MUM.


Summer must be hellish for you, I can really appreciate that. But please do remember: you are doing the best you can and nobody can do more than that!

Thanks guys. I did mention in my post about muzzling him regularly on walks to give myself a chance to relax. We have the Baskerville Ultra muzzle which you can feed treats through so I'll probably use that. He doesn't love the muzzle but he is accustomed to wearing one from dog socialisation class.

My dog trainer is really funny about using muzzle on Cain, everytime we talk about socialisation class he asks if he's still being muzzled and I explain yes, all dogs (aside from training dogs) are muzzled. It makes good sense to me. But my trainer doesn't like to muzzle him for some reason and I'm unsure why. Not of course that that means that I can't do it when I walk him.

My trainer walks him while I'm at work, and generally keeps him away from other dogs. Then the two trainers at socialisation class are telling me not to let him socialise. I feel bad going against three professionals that I very much like and respect But he's really not THAT bad with other dogs, sometimes he plays, sometimes it goes a bit pear shaped but surely if he was muzzled and on a longline, it couldn't go that badly wrong could it?

Sigh I just don't know what to do for the best! I thunk I will start muzzling him regularly, using his meals on walks for training and try exposing him to more and trusting him a little more, otherwise we're never going to progress.

I think at the end of the day. although you are going to this class and benefiting from their advice and help, Cain is your dog and you can best see what will help or hinder him.

It too me ages with Cherry but in the end I actively sought out small dogs for Cherry to meet and greet as she would be fine with them 99% of the time and I thought it was good for her to be "normal" and meet other dogs rather than be kept away from them all.

Advice and training is good but ultimately only you can decide what is best for Cain and what will help him move forward and not regress.

Re the other dog question, from personal point of view Parker was always a god-send when out walking Cherry as he was sociable and would deflect other dogs' attention from Cherry on to meeting him. Of course with a puppy you would want to be careful that it didn't pick up Cain's reactivity/fear but fortunately this never happened with Parker who was a year younger than Cherry.

I know where you are coming from MM - Jake although not aggressive to people is very dog reactive, he lunges and barks and generally causes havoc when we are out and there are other dogs around. He winds dogs up that would probably ignore him if he kept quiet too. A friend of mine had a similar problem with her GSD and decided to 'flood' him with other dogs, but most of the advice I have been given is to avoid other dogs and situations which might stress him out. At training he is fine so at least he sees other dogs there once a week. My friend's 'flooding' seemed to have improved her dog's attitude but as I am in a different situation, as well as a different country I am continuing with avoidance but am unsure really if this is the right way forward.

I really feel for you. I haven't experienced it myself, but I can only imagine and empathise (or sympathise, I'm never sure which is right).
I agree with those who've said to muzzle and allow interaction under your supervison. I muzzle my dog (for different reasons) but it really helps me feel relaxed and confident.
I'm sorry you're feeling so much less confident than last year, it must take a lot of the fun out of walking. I hope the trainers are understanding and helpful if you do choose to go a different direction.
I hope you're soon having fulfilling and stress-free walks, you've worked so hard!
I think it's not unrealistic to be thinking about a puppy in a couple of years, you've got plenty of time to get to a place where you're happier with his behaviour.

Sorry you're feeling so very down and demoralised about Cain's progress, but just look how far you've come, you've done incredibly well in my book.

I have a similar problem, but it's the dogs I'm avoiding not the people, we're fine with people, just that she's not very interested in them. Even with dogs, I'm very lucky, in that I don't have the lungeing and barking, even when they're showing her real aggression as they walk past me, she ignores them, but I've put that down to keeping her onlead when they're going past, because I've done the bit your trainer advised you to do (i.e. the leaving him OFFlead to approach dogs), and it doesn't work for us (that's how my problems started when they showed her aggression, when we went from a shouting match to a bite!), my dog is much more confident and relaxed when put onlead.

I also don't agree with your trainer about not muzzling him on a walk, because in all honestly to ME, it's you who needs to be able to relax which could hopefully rub off on him. So if you were to muzzle him, stop and chat with people here and there, ask them if they wouldn't mind that you stand wiith them for a moment, keep Cain sitting nicely by your side, ask them not to approach him at all, put your hand gently on his head, maybe use some Ttouch with his head gently whilst you're chatting, so that all is c-a-l-m, you want the oooooohmmmmm factor here, and just see how you get on? I'm sure if you keep repeating this process, just like I have been doing with other snapping, snarling dogs going past us onlead you might at least be able to stop Cain's reactions, and in turn, the more you do this, the more he will learn that people are not a big threat to him, like he currently feels.

It's like riding a horse, how can you build confidence in your horse (who is the most fearful animal on the planet!), if you don't have the confidence yourself to act nonchalently, nothing's a big deal, and it can only help to build Cain's confidence up around people.

You've worked so very, very hard, it wasn't an easy ride for you, and the only thing you can do, is to try a bit of this a bit of that and see which one works for you and Cain. I wish you all the luck in the world, I wouldn't want to be in your shoes. I thought I was going to have a real nightmare with Zena with people, especially men, so I stopped every man I came across when out on our walks and did exactly what I'm advising for you, and then I progressed to letting them give her a treat, but that took weeks and she was never muzzled because I know my dog, I know she wouldn't lunge or bite them, she was just a barker who was backing off and I always kept everybody safe until I got to grips with it. Had my method not have worked, then she would have been muzzled because of course I can't risk losing her, and when it's people involved, that's the thing you have to worry about.

It's not a bad thing what your trainers have advised you to do, i.e. walk in solitary, that's exactly what I've been advised to do by a behaviourist, because it destresses my dog from all the fears of having to face loads of them on a walk, and I can see where they are coming from, and it's really working for me. I like solitary and so does my dog quite honestly, because it only takes one numpty to ruin everything I've been working for and it will be the same for you. Having said that, it can make it worse, because you then have the dog/person appearing out of the blue, but if you stay relaxed when you see him tense up, use that nice quiet, friendly voice telling him that all is well, he will either ignore them or just relax himself, tail swishing nicely and he won't lunge or bark at them and if he does, then get his attention immediately. You already know the worst thing you can do is tense up and raise your voice at this point, it will only exacerbate (sp?) the situation, so give them a wide berth, or walk on by if you feel it's safe, or just stop and get a down out of him, a sit, anything to take his focus off them, and if they're willing, it would be a great idea if they could stand just a few feet away, whilst you have a chat, with a nice calm dog sitting by your side, because as I said earlier, the only way he's going to get the fear of people out of his system, is by repetition that they are NOT going to hurt him. I've done this so many times with cows, sheep, joggers, bikers, walkers the lot and it works for ME, hope it works for you!

I think the bottom line is that every dog and every owner is an individual, as is every human:dog relationship.

What is a routine "treatment" for a problem will work differently for different dogs and owners.

Your trainers may well have had success with this approach with others, but that doesn't mean it will suit every dog, or every owner.

I would suggest muzzling him so you can be more confident about meetings, but also ensuring you keep him under good control, such as on a loose line/lead.

Although I accept some dogs are more reactive on lead, I don't agree with off lead only greetings as I feel that is to unfair to potential victims, and it does not enable you to step in before things go wrong. Some dogs can also feel they can take more of a back seat when on lead, so long as they have been trained to that view. I would allow a quick greeting, when suitable, and smoothly move off before things deteriorate, with lots of praise, gradually building the contact time.

Your trainers also have to be aware of their potential legal liabilities. Even a dog putting someone in reasonable fear and apprehension of injury is an offence, even if no injury occurs. You can decide to take that risk, they may not be well advised to formally support that decision (although I do not understand why your trainer is against muzzling).

There are pluses and minuses of going the teaching dog route, this avoidance on meeting other "real life" dogs outside the sessions is not uncommon and can, in some cases, further reduce social skills, as their social circle becomes more rather than less restricted.

However do please remember that it is, IMO at least, very unfair to use other people or dogs as unwitting/unknowing stodges, until/unless you can reasonably control your dog in those circumstances, be that verbal, by distraction: food, toys "watch me": etc, by physical control: muzzle, headcollar, lead, line etc, or by controlling the critical distance, angle, excitement level etc at which relavent stimuli are encountered.

I think sound,reliable, compliance to basic commands (heel, come, leave, stay, watch, etc) is the cornerstone "tool" for resolving many behavioural problems, as you have little to work with before you have that degree of influence.

Teaching dogs can go so far, but one still needs to be able to control one's own dogs around other, less accomplished dogs (and owners) who often occur in real life situations.

Good luck.