Would this be classed as 'aversive' and if so would you condemn it absolutely?

I know that almost all of us reject the more extreme aversives in dog training.

How about the following:

A dog keeps jumping up and snatching food from the table and counters. The trainer arranges for an extremely loud horn to sound every time the dog does it.

Then the trainer and the family leave the house - and they also leave a cake on the kitchen table. But the trainer is watching remotely and is able to sound the horn when the dog jumps up to grab the cake - the dog clearly gets a shock and immediately goes away from the table.

Did the trainer set this dog up to fail?
Is this method considered an 'aversive'?

I've described a method used by a very popular and respected dog trainer seen on TV - not Cesar Milan!

Am really interested in your thoughts - thanks in advance to those who answer

I think I saw this. It worked but, why leave food out in the 1st place.
I did'nt leave food out but, had a dog that did similar so I left all the pans all over the units. They all fell off and made a right racket. Only had to do it once.

IMO, yes, the owner did set the dog up for failure & was using an aversive to train.

I would think this method could have unforeseen repercussions for some more sensitive dogs ~ noise sensitive dogs that already have fears/phobias about fireworks or gunshots could be quite traumatised by this. Their "safe haven" in the home could be compromised, they could be fearful of going into the kitchen etc.

Surely a much simpler method would be to just stop leaving food out! After a while the behaviour would fade as there's never a reward.

I think it would depend on the sensitivity of the dog---You need to be at the right level IMO----if you do it to a really sensitive dog it could end up very fearful of various things in the house which have nothing to do with the cake----that would be down to timing as well.

Personally I deal with potential stealing by keeping surfaces clear of food----management usually works for that problem.

I don't have too much of a problem with the odd short sharp aversive but for stealing the reward is so huge that it has to be a 'high' one to counteract it.

rune

I would def. consider this adversive training. and agree with others on here, that for a sensitive dog, this could cause issues. I would never leave food out, never set the dog up to fail, as all the dog is doing is practicing bad behaviour... the dog needs to practice good behaviour, and be rewarded for that.

I'm guessing this was an old episode as she no longer recommends methods like that.
If its the episode I'm thinking of the dog wasn't just stealing food that was left out unattended, it was taking food out of peoples hands while they were eating, jumping up at the table and stealing it off their plates and even stealing it as it was cooking. If I'm not mistaken it also got aggressive over it.

It's not a method I'd use personally, I'd just limit access to food and teach the dog to go and lie on its bed or something at meal times.

The outcome being that the dog learns to get sneaky and goes down the bin instead.
Aversives that don`t hurt I haven`t got any problem with. When a dog catches my fingers grabbing a toy a good shout does me the world of good and tells the dog that I`m not happy.
Whatever happened to the good old Gerroff! when the dog tries to pinch your sandwich? Why do we need to get a behaviourist and a horn?
Dogs understand perfectly the tone of our voices - use them!
And don`t leave food out - it`s unhygenic and sloppy anyway. You`ll get mice.

BTW if you want to stop a dog stealing your food it`s easy
1. don`t feed the dog while you`re eating.
2. teach the dog a down stay
3. eat at a table like a civilised person.

My dogs certainly wouldn't learn well by this method, Zeke would be frightened and Keisha confused.

Yup what she said
There are plenty ways to train a dog not to counter surf - but the simplest one is to tidy up
Why punish a dog for something that is your fault?

and how scary for the dog - what happens if he now thinks all food is gonna give the scary noise?

We're horrendously uncivilised and don't even have a table. Nowhere to put one even if we did.

I agree though, why do people need a behaviourist and a horn to stop their dog stealing their dinner? Crate the dog, put it in another room, teach it to lie on its bed while you eat, teach it self control around food.

If this is the episode I'm thinking of though (the one with the Dalmatian?) then food stealing wasn't the only problem they were having.