I wasn't getting stroppy; perhaps it came across that way as I was a little busy settling current foster in! I wasn't sure what your point was. I spoke about my lack of faith in intelligence testing and you started to talk about ethics

My friend has lived in the area for 50 years. He absolutely knows what he is doing. Saved by quick thinking but it was close.
We have many predators, we as a species carry a lot of weight! As a species with many predators we cannot be top of the food chain.

Yes I know it was but it isn't what you said

As I said to Tarrimoor, better scientists than us will continue with the 'who is top of the food chain' debate but I am very firmly on the 'not us' side ( as you can probably tell), given,should they really feel that way inclined my dogs could eat me and I would be able to do very little about it.

I think what's getting mixed up (not by you but just generally) is intelligence and ethics, someone can be intelligent but lack ethics to use that intelligence wisely, which for me includes lacking the motivation to actually use their own intelligence in a way which beneifts them and possibly others, not just having intelligence and using it in a way that is obviously detrimental to others and our surroundings.

Depends which field you stand in, considering the ritual for a Masai male is to go out and kill a male lion with nothing more than a spear, if you were stood in a field in Kenya/Tanzania, you may well find lions are fearful of man, and will run away. If you did the same in Botswana or other southern African countries, you'd find them less fearful, as they are not hunted in the same way. Snakes generally slither away as quickly as possible, it's only when they feel cornered they resort to other methods of intimidation, it's only a handful of snakes world wide that are actually considered to be *aggressive*. So it depends what you call a predator really, having lived in Africa I've come across snakes, scorpions, poisonous centipedes and spiders, and all sorts outside my back door and always came off the best, I've sat next to lions on a fresh kill less than six feet away, in an open topped vehicle, because lions don't recognise us as possible prey in that instance. I'm not a scientist btw, just a slightly intelligent human being



I have to disagree about foxes and rabbits, I've seen rabbits sunbathing, and pigeons, both ideal snacks or a myriad of predators, just as I've seen foxes sneaking off at the sign of something they find evokes a sense of fear, even if they don't understand why. That aside, neither the fox or the rabbit would feel any different if they were actually pursued, I think both would feel the same way, it's a natural part of the flight mechanism for all animals, not just prey animals.

I apologise but my understanding of blow fly is the one that lays it's eggs on clothing, which then transfers to your skin where it hatches and burrows into your skin and actually pupates under the skin beore emerging as an adult. I've never referred to bluebottles as blow fly or heard them referred to as this name, but it seems the term 'blow fly' refers to a whole family of these insects. Hence the confusion

Just read through this whole thread. And only have one thought to add....

What would this conversation have been if it had been two pet dogs killed by the fox instead of rabbits????


In the States Coyotes are going urban just like the fox in the UK, the difference Coyotes can and do take small dogs and cats as food items. Would you feel the same sharing you area with a wild animal that would kill your dog or cat? Just a hypothetical question to throw into the mix, as many people do love their small furries as much as others love their dogs.
And personally I would defend my animals by any means possible.

Just read through this whole thread. And only have one thought to add....

What would this conversation have been if it had been two pet dogs killed by the fox instead of rabbits????


In the States Coyotes are going urban just like the fox in the UK, the difference Coyotes can and do take small dogs and cats as food items. Would you feel the same sharing you area with a wild animal that would kill your dog or cat? Just a hypothetical question to throw into the mix, as many people do love their small furries as much as others love their dogs.
And personally I would defend my animals by any means possible.

Not really relevant, as we do not have coyotes in the UK. However, If I lived in a country where there was a risk, such as this then I would take every step possible to ensure safety.

Which is why I said hypothetically question, as in look at it from a different point of view to what others will experience. It is a bit like the rabies point that was brought up before, if there was rabies in the UK what would you think of foxes then? As they would be putting your pet dogs and children and family at serious risk if that were the case.

And just to point out the OP had taken those steps to try to ensure the rabbits safety, the fox still managed to break through.

Yup ... and I do. My daughter has 3 chihuahuas, one of which is a little devil for looking down holes. We have a badger's sett down the bottom of our field, and we have to remember when we have little man with us not to let him stick his head down because Mr Brock is more than capable of taking it off with one snap. Badgers are even more vicious than foxes when defending their cubs, their homes and their territories ... so what? It is the instinctive behaviour of all life on earth to live long enough to be able to breed, to pass on their genes and to ensure if at all possible that their young live to maturity to do likewise. It is NIMBYISM in the extreme to get all crinkly if you choose to live in the countryside, and lose a beloved pet to Mr Brock or Charlie Fox. I can accept that if one lives in a city it would be slightly more irksome to have a fox take your pet, but again the fox is only following his instinct to survive and pass on his genes in the best way possible. If that means he has to move into the city to have an easier living, then don't blame the fox, blame nature!

Just read through this whole thread. And only have one thought to add....

What would this conversation have been if it had been two pet dogs killed by the fox instead of rabbits????


In the States Coyotes are going urban just like the fox in the UK, the difference Coyotes can and do take small dogs and cats as food items. Would you feel the same sharing you area with a wild animal that would kill your dog or cat? Just a hypothetical question to throw into the mix, as many people do love their small furries as much as others love their dogs.
And personally I would defend my animals by any means possible.

And see it is also in our nature to protect what is ours (farmers and such as it is their livelihood and their survival depends on their livestock) just as much as the wild animals are, so even by your logic people do have the right to act in a natural way. So why is one animal worth more than another? And who decides, cull the fox? let the fox kill whatever he wants?