Well said Patch, my thoughts exactly

I agree, also find out in the breed who has a list of buyers waiting for puppies this is usually a good indication that there an ethical breeder. Also I looked around the rings ans show what breeding was behind the other show dogs that breeders had brought in, As Malady says its not rocket science and their are a lot of good breeders out there, if you put in the time and effort to research your breed. Which I why I'm against naming and shaming and would prefer to educate.
Also it works both ways dont forget you might find an ethical breeder refuses to sell you a pup as for example they dont think your suited to the breed.

Because - as already stated several posts ago - saying `so called` infers a refusal to believe any breeder could be ethical when many certainly are ethical, I can think of some in an instant among members here whom I hold in the highest regard for upholding and adhering to ethics, [ no I`m not naming names, I don`t need to, ethical breeders here already know they fit the category ]
And believe me - it takes every tick in every ethics box for me - who is as pro-rescue as it gets - to consider a breeder ethical [ fwiw ]

That might be how you see it but most people see them as no better than them. Its all just getting a tad pedantic [ and goodness knows I`m a right swine for being pedantic myself ].

How about we stop splitting hairs and simply stick to the accepted and recognisable `categories` or wording [ please lol ].

Breeders are either ethical in every way or they are not. Those who are not ethical are either puppy farmers [ depending on scale ] or BYBs, and both those categories are unethical therefore we don`t need to keep going in circles over the wording, an ethical breeder is an ethical breeder, the rest are not, simple as.

When I posted on this, in my mind I was thinking of pure bred dogs. I'm sorry I should have made that clear

I know nothing about agility as it is now. I did compete with my Border Collie but that was in the 80s I gather it's changed beyond all recognition now!

Of course, you're right about rescues and the deliberate breeding of cross breeds.

Debs

That's not the impression I got from reading AnneUK's posts, she was saying the exact same as me, that the so called/fake ethical breeders give the genuine ethical breeders a bad name. Anyhow I think I'll have to agree to disagree because I honestly don't think calling these breeders bybs helps, to the general public bybs don't show, bybs to them are only one litter people or those who are only in it for the money, so therefore if they meet a breeder who is not what they would consider a byb or a pf they think they must be ok, which obviously we all know isn't the case.

Why is it confusing ???
Some BYBs do show, what makes you think they don`t ??
Some do breed to further their line but fall short on one or more ethical aspects.
BYBs are anyone and everyone who does not fulfill every ethical criteria whether its the numpty who lets their dog take themselves for walks and come back pregnant or causing another to get pregnant, to those in the show world who don`t do everything as they should and various other `types`.
Some do it for money, some just let litters happen out of ignorance, and all sorts of others its applicable to, you don`t seem to fully understand what is encompassed by BYB, its not as narrow a group as you seem to think it is

You may consider a byb to show but the general public consider back yard breeders to be dodgy characters that have no idea about dogs who just breed to make a quick buck. Not the type that have waiting lists, do well in shows, have websites etc

Heck no, it was me who went on on a tangent with my little rant, its something I`m particularly passionate about whether purebreds or crosses deliberately bred for a hobby - I have a bad habit of going off on one about it

No - it saying things like `so called` which create the confusion, breeders are either ethical or they are not, full stop !
The general public will only think the definition you give of BYB is the case if people keep suggesting it......

One more time

Ethical = does everything right
BYB = does`nt do everything right
Puppy Farmer = does`nt do everything [ if anything ] right on a large scale

Can we move on now, pleeeeeeze