... and people class this person as a good trainer

These tv things are the bane of my life, so many people get tips off them and tell me because they think it will make me think that they care/are listening. I have had a boxer pup that had the rattle bottle shaken at it at 10 weeks old, they called me out as they wondered why instead of coming to his name he ran and peed himself.... and I have had a collie (dog aggressive) with handlers who seeked out other dogs so that they could yank the lead away and scream NO at it (all the while the dogs excitement is building and it is totally ignoring the owner - making the behaviour worse) because that is what they did on the tv (people that know behaviour will know there is no way the dog is going to learn when the emotional system is aroused like this) ... and I have had someone using a spray collar on a dog that was 'eating too fast'.
And all through it I have to smile, grit my teeth and say ''well ok, but how about we try it this way instead'' using methods that are not going to dement your dog (ok I don't say that last bit, I wish I could!)

I've just watched yet another brilliant Cesar programme. I watched, really watched, emptied my mind of the fact that I find the man mind numbingly sexy, pretended he looked like a Ferengi on a bad day, and really concentrated on the dogs, what he was doing, saying etc. etc. I saw absolutely no sign of deep, sincere fear-for-their-lives on the dogs' faces, extreme angst yes, because for the first time in their lives they had met their match, I saw dogs cowering and frightened, confused because all of a sudden things weren't going their way ... but so what? These animals aren't fluffy balls of coochy coo, they are domesticated wolves, even chiahuahuas, with teeth to match. Cesar's way, is the way of the alpha female, firm but fair, this is nature in tooth and claw. Nature isn't all sweet and nicey nice, oh dear poor little dog, did you have a terrible time in your past life? A terrible time in a past life where a dog has been beaten and abused is kindeed terrible, and sad and tragic, but we have to move on for the dog's sake. To help the dog grow and become stable we must not show pity, or remorse, but calm and assertive leadership. This is what Cesar does. He is not cruel, he does not beat dogs, he does not hit dogs, he does not hurt dogs, but he does show them calm assergive energy and a complete lack of fear, a wall of steel if you like. This will cause most dogs to cower and tremble to start with. This does not mean that they are absolutely terrified, a dog who is absolutely terrified will tear you apart if he is big enough to be able to do so. A dog who is absolutely terrified in fear of his life is a terrifying thing to behold. We must not be anthropomorphic when dealing with traumatised or unsocialised or undisciplined dogs, we must show them calm assertive leadership, which gives them confidence to relax and allow us to take the lead.

It is a case of "oh well, he's not frightened of the claw clippers, so why am I bothering".

Jess: Everything you say is awful about dog trainers, you are right, it is awful. But what you describe is not Cesar's way. Cesar's way is calm, assertive energy, just exactly what you are advocating.

Cesar does not advocate screaming, he advocates calm assertive energy and his "tsst" or "ay" works very well indeed. Short, sharp, assertive yet gentle shock to bring the dog out of his hysterical state and into the state of listening and paying attention to you, ready for the next command. It worked instantaneously with my dog, an extremely difficult, assertive, alpha male husky/mal cross. Very independent, very aloof and aware of his own importance. After 9 years of little success, using Cesar's methods, I got him to walk to heel, stop jumping up and perform a rather wobbly and lengthy but eventually successful recall - all in the space of a couple of hours!

Im sorry but how patronising is that comment, there are a number of people on this thread who are very experienced dog owners and who agree with some of CM's methods and the way he views dogs. Ive watched basically every episode and though i think the couple of pinning instances i've seen him do may set a very bad presidence for the novice watching, some of his techniques have worked for me and clearly other members of the forum. I think I CM loves dogs and will try and rehabilitate dogs other TV experts may recommend for rehoming or the glue factory. Granted the 'power of the pack/flooding' techniques arent practical whether right or wrong - there isnt a 'calm submissive' pack round the corner for everyone with a very aggressive/dominant dog.
But he doesnt wack dogs like the ignorant people some of whom appear to be judging him from second hand literature theyve plucked from the internet suggests and you'd think he just chokes, jabs and rolls any old dog listening to some of the comments. These are often aggressive or belligerent cases he is merely and what I think calmly, asserting what he calls his positive energy. Well just by using his ideas on confident walking, increase exercise and assertiveness with basically no touching just 'ssshhh' noises and firm body language he has helped me gain an even stronger control over my dogs recently and it has helped introduce a new puppy to the gang with so far fingers corssed relative ease.
Furthermore so keen are some of us to put our own opinions across we have misread and confused CM's rattle bottle - the episode he used it he didnt throw it - he shook it to distract a heeler every time he zoned in on a visitors ankle.
And CM doesnt exercise his dogs to exhaustion he just lets them burn off some energy to be more receptive to the training. You'll find a lot of these dogs are under-exercised and this is the cause of a lot of their frustration and lack of positive response to their owners.
No one expert is going to be right about everything CM isnt and actually doesnt profess to be in essence.
If we were talking about parenting everyone would have their own ways and ideas, but we wouldnt call someone crap parents if they chose to smack or not smack a child if thats what they deemed was right, so I am a dissapointed when i see these threads basically rubbishing peoples opinions if they dont conform to your own.
Ive seen it on other threads where an innocent question such as when is a good age to neuter a dog has stoked up a whirlwind of peoples opinions telling people what they should or shouldnt do with regards to the ethics of neutering.
Why cant people have their own opinions on stuff without people looking down their noses at them.

Well said, Nicky, I totally agree. The anti CM'ers tend to grossly exaggerate his methods - "exercise to exhaustion", "banging toasters up and down in its face" "stringing a dog up in a corner", "wheeling a wheelbarrow up and down in a horse's face" (not exact quotes from people, so please don't anyone jump down my throat because I haven't been 100% accurate).

I am beginning to question myself one or two of his methods - his obsession that the dog walks behind, never walks through a door first, etc. etc, just to give one or two examples. A good, healthy discussion is always very interesting, and I am prepared to, shall we say, lessen my enthusiasm for ALL of his ways. However, what I cannot deny is the proof of the pudding before my own eyes - my Hal, completely revolutionised in the space of a few minutes in terms of walking to heel, sitting, and not jumping up.

Perhaps I might say this in future : for difficult cases like my Hal, an extremely intelligent, entire alpha male, manipulative, cunning, aloof, independent, completely uninterested in titbits or pleasing you, Cesar's Way is magical. Maybe for some dogs, he is too "hands on", too "treat them all the same".

But never in a million years will I agree that Cesar is cruel. It is quite clear he adores dogs, can communicate with them and read them in a way that very few human beings can, it is also quite clear that dogs love and respect him. I wish I had his abilities.

exactly - his programme offers disclaimers to not try anything without consulting professionals simultaneously whenever he is performin any of his own techniques, he is merely showcasing his own talents and offering guidance in certain situations rather than telling people exactly what to do. The energy and the more gentler techniques have worked very well for me and offer a refreshing alternative option to the reward method.
My dogs respect me more since i have utilised some of his methods - but they arent trembling wrecks and why shouldnt a dog be respectful - you can be happy and respectful - i'm happy and respectful, especially of other peoples views if they differ from mine.
Gnasher you like some of what CM does then good for you, so do I and it doesnt make us any less 'dog people' for doing so

Well said, I agree. But of course everyone is entitled to their own opinions ... just as we are to argue with them. It makes for very interesting discussion, and I have been made to see that Cesar isn't always perfect in his methods, I have been made to open my mind and really look at what he is doing, and whether the end achievement is worth some of the more, shall we say, harsher methods that he uses.

I say a resounding yes with the red zoners, the dogs that are about to be PTS. Immediate results have to be achieved and if that means being harsh, then so be it.

I have to agree that a dog who barks at the toaster is hardly serious stuff, but short of these few little niggles, I would be more than happy for Cesar to have done his stuff with my boy, who incidentally would have adored him, given him a run for his money initially, but would have ended up with a huge amount of respect for him because he would have known that here was a human who REALLY understood him, and was more than a match for his whiles!

i would definately think that would make the dog a bit jittery and nervous...how horrible to think that every time you reached behind you, your dog thought you were about to throw something at it!!! I would never do that to my dogs, for one, they love to play fetch too much(even though they dont quite grasp the idea of always bringing it back) and i get great pleasure out of watching them and seeing what a great time they have, i couldnt bare to think that they would quit being their playful, fun loving selves because every time i wanted to play fetch they thought i was going to HIT them with the object!!! no thanks, ill just stick to the good ole training methods ive always used, havent had any problems yet, and until i do, why fix something thats not broken?

Sammerson: I am completely at a loss to understand what you are talking about ! I have never known Cesar ever produce something from behind his back and throw it at a dog! Sorry if I'm being thick, but I am completely confused!