I use horse training methods on dogs, ok not CM's methods as he is not a horse trainer but as Bal said, some horses respond to some methods, some need firm handling, same with dogs, I train all my dogs with the liberty method, its worked for me and several members of the training club, the truth be known I train every animal as an individules no two animals will be the same, so should be trained as such,

I agree with desensitisation rather than flooding, which I perceive as inhumane.

Here's a rather excellent video of a dog who being desensitised to having his claws cut - all in about 45 minutes!

Do watch - it's excellent

http://canisfilmfestival.com/submissions_02.html

The dog showed biting and aggressive behaviour previously.

Video shows how to desensitise without overly stressing out the dog or, as much to the point, the owner

Wys
x

Loved the vid, thanks for that, as many know im a big fan of the clicker, its useful for every aspect of owning a dog, I also have had great results with problem horses with it,

So you didnt trap it in a corner & take the tack on & off until the horse gave up then? because that is a CM method!!!!!
I dont think your way was CM at all, but just excellent horse thinking!!!!Well done on your success!

Completly agree, My horse was quite scared of the wheelbarrow,if id trapped her in a stall & banged it up & down infront of her face i hate to think of what would have happened! she got used to it by me using it everyday & not pandering to her silly notions!

mishflynn, I think you are being a little harsh ! Cesar is a Dog Whisperer, not a Horse Whisperer. If he knows anything about horses at all, he would know that horses are flight animals and would not use this method. Dogs are not, they are fight animals.

Therefore, the worst thing you could do to a horse who was frightened of a wheelbarrow would be to trap it in its stable and wheel the wheelbarrow up and down in front of it. That would be suicide for the human, and I am sure CM would agree.

Bearing in mind CM's calm assertive energy with dogs, I would have the horse loose in the field and wheel the wheelbarrow up and down and round and about, taking absolutely no notice of the horse at all. Eventually, the horse, dying of curiosity, would come and have a sniff, probably scooting off a few times, whinnying and bucking, but always coming back, gradually plucking up more and more courage. At this stage, I would then stop wheeling the barrow, and stand still beside it, still not looking at the horse. Next stage, provided the horse had come up to the barrow and was altogether being a bit more calm and settled, I think I would try putting a carrot in the barrow and walking away, totally ignoring the horse. I would then go back into the field,put another carrot in the barrow, and walk towards the horse with the barrow, not looking at the horse but looking down at the barrow, stop, still holding the barrow, and see if the horse would come easily and calmly and take the carrot. I would then give the horse lots of praise if he were standing calmly munching his carrot, and then keep repeating this several times over the next few days to reinforce this positive behaviour. This is a speeded up, very simplistic view of what I would have done with my horse. All horses are very different though, and it could take weeks to achieve even some of the above.

The most important thing here being that YOU ARE MAKING THE HORSE STAND UP TO HIS FEAR OF THE WHEELBARROW - not by trapping it, you can't do that with a horse because it would not only be very dangerous to yourself, it will be inhibiting the horse's natural flight behaviour. By "trapping" a dog, ie forcing it to stay put using calm assertive energy whilst you, say, run a pair of dog clippers over it, is making the dog face up to his fear and realise there is nothing to be afraid of. The difference between this and the horse is that the dog is not a flight animal, it is a fight animal when cornered, and therefore when it shows aggression towards you or the clippers, you correct it with a firm "no" or "hey" or "tsst" at the same time as firmly nudging him on the shoulder or side.

This is what a mother wolf or indeed a mother domestic dog does to her pups when they misbehave, except she uses her teeth.

Where's the cruel?

Have you seen Ceaser with the toaster & the sheltie, Stringing the little dog up in a corner & banging the toaster up & down in its face until it gave in through fear & shut down? All because the owners didnt like the way it reacted to the toaster popping? THAT is harsh ,not me!!!!!

That IS his method,
flood the animal with its fear & hold it in place till it accepts it.Or shuts down, his problem is he dosent know the difference or dosent care!

Im bowing out of this now, the man is a sadistic,Macho idiot.IMO,
If any of you want to hero worship him, then thats up to you all! Glad my dogs havent taken over the world yet with their upbringing of good ole common sense!

Bye from this thread.
I really dont want to post again on it,so by allmeans respond to my post but dont pull it apart,cant be bother to argue/defend my opinion anymore.

Treat your dogs like you like & i will do the same to mine!

Cheers!!!!!!

And a very Happy New Year to you mishflynn.

I am not sure why you are being so aggressive. If you calm down and read my posting again, you will find that I am agreeing with you - that waggling a wheelbarrow in front of a terrified horse in a stable is not a good idea - for you or the horse.

I have also pointed out that CM is not a Horse Whisperer, he is a Dog Whisperer. I then went on to describe what, in my opinion, would be a sensible way to handle a horse who had an irrational fear of a wheelbarrow.

Not sure why you have flown off on one. But there we are, it's a free world.

Hi Gnasher, I always understood a dog when cornered may freeze, flee or fight, it will not necessarily fight it depends on the circumstances .

By trapping the dog as you describe its option to flee is removed so it has no choice but to freeze of fight .
It is not learning to accept the clippers, instead it is being forced into submission. If at some later stage someone less forceful tries to clip the dog it could well bite them.

I would not use the method you describe above, instead I would gradually habituate the dog to the clippers by leaving them around,turning them on while playing with the dog and giving it tip bits so it learns to associate the clippers with good things .

The next stage is to take the clippers near the dog and pretend to use them while giving lots of praise, at no stage would I force the dog to go beyond its level of comfort.

I end up with a dog who has learnt to accept the clippers without fear. I have used this method to habituate dogs with a variety of objects and to get my latest puppy who is now 6 months old used to the clippers . She was terrified of the clippers to begin with and I got her to accept them in a very short time.

You can also use the clicker method to get the dog used to clippers as illustrated in the video posted earlier in the thread by Wysiwyg.

The other thing not taken into consideration when forcing the dog to do something as you describe is 'negative association'. Dogs often associate similar sights/smells/sounds to those which have previously made them fearful. Say a child had a toy which made a similar sound to the clippers, the dog could associate that toy with the unpleasant experience and bite the child.

I have seen numerous incidences of 'negative association' and think that this could account for some incidences of dogs biting unexpectedly.

I saw that one, I was horrified, that poor dogs terror then literal expression in his eyes of `please let me die` is burned into my memory - having deaf dogs for so many years makes me perhaps acutely aware of a dogs` physical demeanour including what`s in their eyes - that dog was deeply traumatised without a doubt, it was inhumane to the core