This is the main issue that People have......results are important....what happens to the dog in the mean time or the fall out afterwards (your own dog being frightened of you ) means nothing.

WW/Taassle

The thing with the body language (e;g focused v stress) is that its highly subjected and likely to be manipulated to what people want to believe.

An example Most of the anti ceasr people say the dogs in his vids display frightened body language.
However I have never seen any independant scientific backing for this.
What seems to happen a lot is that the reward based dog training world takes the bits of science they like and utilises it for their own means and dismisses the bits they don't like.

Adam

Adam, could I ask, what do you see from Jacca in your videos?

Body language can't be scientifically tested in any other way than observational study. Observational studies will always be challenged because, as you say, conclusions can be subjective.

However, observation is easy to achieve with dogs because, quite simply, we don't need laboratories or complicated tests/statistical knowledge to do them and our subjects are seen day in day out.

When signals are repeated over and over in various situations by various dogs, conclusions are reached that the majority agree on. The slight nuances of signals are the ones that lead to grey areas that can be interpreted in many different ways, but, for the most part we now know enough to interpret a lot of what dogs are communicating.

Look at dogs in different situations. Look for the signals being replicated and very quickly you will start to build up a picture and what body language goes with what 'emotion'. After doing that and repeating it to confirm what you are seeing, apply that knowledge to what you see and I think you will agree that there are differences in emotional responses to excitement, pleasure, fear and stress.

I could quote you thousands of links to canine body language that have now become accepted as accurate interpretations. I've yet to find one that backs up your theory that a dog being trained through reward is showing stress.

ok Adam a VERYS simple test for you, please share your thoughts on what the dog is saying/feeing in these two pics,
this one, is of Maisie, yellow lab taken last night in my class:


and this one, yellow lab being trained with prong, snapshot from youtube vid: solidk9training


so tell us, what do the dogs' body language tell you in these pics?

I know I'm not adam, but may I be so prude as to comment as well? Please? I would like to brush up on my dog-to-human body lengo as well... please correct me if I'm wrong.

Dog 1- dog seems happy to be there & engaged in the excersise, equally important is the trainer's body lengo as well, which seems relaxed & happy, likle he is having as much fun as the dog (that's what my puppy looks like when she walks with me).

Dog 2- the dog seems shut down & avoident of the trainer, like he would flee at the first chance of the leash were dropped. The trainer's lengo is very tense & overbearing, ot doesn't look like he is having very much fun either.

In conclusion, shouldn't training be fun for both dog & owner? I will admit to using a prong on a couple of dogs (Izze & a dobe I had...back then I was young & didn't know better) but even they didn't act like the dog in the 2nd pic .

Disagree Adam, but can't be bothered to argue to be honest.

You know you are wrong. Body language is usually pretty clear.

Not gonna comment as to what the dogs are saying till Adam shares his thought

What a lovely foto the first one is
Thats a proper connection where you are both grinning at each other
You must be proud to run such a great class with such love between dog and owner

agree with the above - in your photo both dog and owners and having fun and focusing on each other

In the bottom foto dog and handler have no connection, the poor dog is v stressed and unhappy and the handler is more interested in the camera than the dog

I love running my classes that was puppy class. The dog is 4 months (if memory serves) and we always make a big deal of making sure both dog and owners have fun

The one in the prong is less animated in its overall body language. The fact its doing a down/stay is the reason.

Adam