Just to advise on what i have seen of this method of working horses, for a start the horse is far from exhausted when they start to show signs of exceptance. Horses can run for miles when fit so a few times round a pen is nothing. Exhaustion was a key part of the old method of breaking horses but not the way NH works.

Mares are very bossy creatures when in a group, i have seen our old mare Kerrus banish Bonny away from her (ears flat neck out rushing at him) when he has irritated her. He never took this well and always hovered around the edge waiting to be back in her good books. A little while later he was always forgiven and they were thick as thieves again but he behaved him self. Well at least for a while!

Basically with horses, if you are on your own you die, safety in numbers and all that.
The herd of young males form a bachelor herd till they find a group of mares of their own, they will roam around together and stay safe in a group.
Join up plays on the fact that horses are herd animals, what it does is push the horse round the pen till they are tired (tired horses are easier to pick off by predators, the human plays the role of the predator making them self look big and striking out with claws - the rope) and they are on their own in a pen, the human then stops being a predator and displays submissive body language, the horse doesn't want to get eaten and die alone and tired so they 'join up' with the human in the hopes they will protect them.

I personally don't do join up with my horses as I don't agree with making myself out to be the predator, but I do use some of the other methods/exercises Kelly Marks has in her book perfect manners.
I mostly work my horses on pressure/release as I have one horse who has a 'get them before they get me' attitude after years of being misunderstood, If you tried to drive him around a pen he would run at first (natural flight instinct) and then he would probably attack you.

I really like the way you train your horses and i think it sums up for me how people should work. Listen to what others have to say take the bits that work for you from each person and form your own way of doing things based on your horses. After all we are not sheep to blindly follow others teaching but should be open to new ways of doing things at the same time.

Not sure where you saw an exhausted horse, the one in the MR clip was far from that stage.

Moving a horse round an arena a few times is not exhausting it.

Yes horses are flight animals, they will also fight when cornered.. (ask anyone who has had a problem horse) they will kick bite and charge you if flight cant be their first choice.

The stallion beign moved out of a heard is down to hierarchy , if he refuses to go, he will be killed.

The move off and join up MR uses is using the natural instinct of the horse to be part of the heard, the stallion beign pushed out is not going to be allowed back , he has to stand on his own.

Amare with a young foal will discipline her young in such a way, rather like a parent putting a child out of the room to calm down, it is follow up with love and cuddles.

You watch a heard of horses in a field, you will see this behaviour on a daily basis... but it will always end in a grooming of each other.

Horse have incredible strength , we have to use what means we have to control them.
Sadly there is still the school of "brute force" used by some, but thankfully more and more people are becoming tuned into the horses, and using what nature gave to get results instead of the beat them into submision theory.

A horse that has been disiplined in the heard this way (join up ) will not suffer any ill effects, so why assume it would be any different if we implement it.

Exactly ~ that's what I understood from Monty Roberts' methods. Looks impressive, appears to work, is given a fancy name, says it is all about using the horse's natural behaviours, but is ultimately not very nice for the horse. Now to me, that's not a lot better than some of the methods we absolutely condemn when used on dogs!

I've seen horses with severe behavioural problems clicker trained using only positive reinforcement with fantastic results. So why can't operant & classical conditioning methods via positive reinforcement be used for horses? I will accept that perhaps some negative reinforcement & punishment (& even positive punishment) will be used, & because of the innate social needs of horses & dogs, they will put up with this. But it doesn't make it right or ethical, any more so than it does for any other domestic animal.

I saw Monty Roberts when he came here in the 90's at Spirit of the Horse when he had just been "discovered", i thought he was great, no cruelty or illtreatment involved and the bond was amazing - so i can't see what the problem but hey each to their own as they say.

Anyway i missed this programme, i forgot it was on - does anyone know if that episode is being repeated in the week ?

I loved it too, especially the Frenchman on the beach, oh how those horses seemed to adore him, and what beautifull, beautiful horses, were they Lippizaners (sp?) do you think?? So, so beautiful those greys, looked like those china horses didn't they and so very graceful, just awesome.

The best bit for me was that last segment where he was put in the pen to learn a lesson from that horse that didn't seem to want to know him at first. I think that made him cry didn't it! Yes, he certainly learned a big lesson there I think. Loved those arabs, although like Jackie, I wouldn't want to own one thanks, but that horse on the block lol!

Can't wait for next Sunday's episode, but I hope we don't see anything not quite so nice