It doesn't matter if the objects are natural or man made. Lightning is static electricity.

Regardless of whether you believe the shock is static or not, it's an electric shock, just like the shock you get from static. It feels exactly the same and can be as mild as touching your drier or as severe as lightning although e-collars obviously aren't THAT powerful. So the whole 'static or not' debate is irrelevant.

Not a matter of belief or not - matter of fact. Your facts are wrong - it is not static.

"just like" static.. nonsense.

Aye, but as many of us here already know an e-collar salesmen is about as trustworthy as a shark during a feeding frenzy crossed with a dodgy type of used car salesman such as seen in Ealing comedy type films.
Sadly many people are still completely taken in by the sales pitch - and that`s all it is, a scripted sales pitch.


But of course we know nothing Ramble including those with years of experience in rehabilitating dogs which have suffered abuse including those on which the previous owners were `merely giving discipline`.
And yet the wishy washy among us manage to rehab these dogs without `giving [ punitive ] discipline` despite the severity of problems in some of the dogs which obviously need resolving but for which doing anything which would be physical or mental harm would tip those dogs over the edge to the point of being irretrievable.
So if `wishy washy` works on dogs with severe problems, why would anyone feel the need to use punitive measures on perectly normal dogs which have never known the badness in humans ? Until of course those punitive methods create exactly the sort of dog in need of `wishy washy` help...

Getting results through gentle, understanding, fun and positive methods must presumably be down to pure luck as those of us who use a gentle touch instead of a stick, a fist, a foot, a slap, or an electric shock seem to `muddle` along quite well

On asking a shock collar merchant how he would deal with a deaf dog with something as basic as recall, teaching Sit, and other training basics his answer was to shock the dog, and not surprisingly ` shock the dog` was the answer to every scenario put to him...

Anyone still believe in the shock merchant sales pitch ?

[ oh and the injury to my shoulder from a static shock a few weeks ago is looking like it will definitely need physio to put it right - and a static shock does not have the same physical attack as a shock collar, its far less intense, so if a simple static shock can do such major damage, multiply that by the reality of a shock collar instead of the sales pitch version which makes out its just a `tickle`.... ]

So would putting a dog on a lead or longline when necessary or just not putting a dog into situations they can`t cope with. But that won`t make money for the shock salesmen of course...

Giving discipline and inflicting pain are not the same thing. Are you saying Snorri was inflicting pain every time he 'smacked' his dogs? And all the other owners here who have said they have done the same? It is possible to physically discipline someone or an animal, without hurting!

Physically moving your dog could be discipline, so could nudging or a quick touch to grab the attention. You don't HAVE to use an e-collar to HURT. You can use it to SHOCK without causing PAIN. I have an electronic exercise pad to use on my tummy - it SHOCKS but it doesn't HURT. People use TENS machines to help with pain relief, they give electric SHOCKS - if they inflicted pain would they be used as pain relief?

I haven't been 'persuaded' by anyone. I know my dog well enough to recognise if he had a sudden infliction of pain. And I don't think the 'we wishy washy trainers know nothing blah di blah di blah' comment is helpful at all! No one has said any such thing to me, nevermind 'persuaded' me of such an opinion. I have never called any trainer 'wishy washy' or accused any of knowing nothing. Perhaps YOU are making assumptions about the kind of person who would use an e-collar, but please don't accuse ME of that kind of prejudice towards those who DON'T - because I'm not guilty.

It comes from comments made by shock salesmen, there is nothing they won`t stoop to in order to peddle their abusive wares.

I have never spoken to an e-collar salesperson.

I think you are excellent trainers. I haven't made any negative comments about your training methods. I don't think you are 'wishy washy' or that you 'know nothing'. I have a great respect for the training you do.

I do believe however, that sometimes discipline is extremely useful when used in conjunction with positive methods. I also believe that it is possible to use an e-collar to this effect withOUT inflicting pain or fear.

I accept that you don't - withOUT prejudice. Can't you accept that discipline does not necessarily mean inflicting pain?

The only way to use one `correctly` imo is on vibrate setting only, but never ever on a shock delivery setting, so if all shock collars had the shock element removed and were therefore vibrating collars, I`d be happy with that - then, and only then, can they be regarded as a positive training tool, [ and that`s providing the individual dog is not spooked by it ], because a vibration can be used as a marker like a clicker or to give cues at distance when voice does`nt carry well enough, [ but even then the chances of batteries running down or other system failure negates its use at all ].

Can you accept that mental pain is as bad as physical pain ?
There is no room in training for either imo.
When discipline of the type under discussion comes into it, its not about teaching a dog, its about the failings of the handler but the dog is the one paying the price for the handlers lack of ability because of their assuming or expecting dogs to know right from wrong in the way humans understand right from wrong.
Guidance is what they need, not punishment because of a handler not knowing how to bring a dog on without resorting to mental or physical violence, especially when a dog getting punished is pretty much always due to the handler putting a dog in a situation the dog is not yet ready to understand or cope with.

No.
Not if you are using an electric shock collar.
All electric shocks hurt.
As I said before, with electricity it is a matter of degree.
A matter of conductivity of the skin, a matter of overall health, a matter of personal pain threshold.

That is why my comments on electricity are relevant. If you understood electricity you would understand this: All electric shocks hurt.
Damage is a matter of degree.

Sallyinlancs, do you have children and if so how do you discipline them?