I'm confused now too with all these threads converged onto the same topic.... nearly missed this!


Sorry no, I can't remember all that I've read over the years in books, not to mention the net. Which bit are you disagreeing with, assuming you are?


Ok right, I see where you're coming from now.

I see this as flaws in the application of the theory rather than the theory itself being flawed. If the reaction to this is to discount alpha theory completely with a knee-jerk response favouring 'positive' only training techniques, there is much to be lost IMO, akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

There will always be people who mistreat animals and abuse their position of alpha/leader but I don't think this is down to over zealous application of a learned training technique.... it's just how some people behave unfortunately.

Just a word on the alpha roll. I agree completely that this should never be given out in advice to anyone but I do think that it has a place. There's a lot of misunderstanding and I've seen things written like ... the dog thinks it's about to be killed!

I've spent most of my life (so far!) living with multiple dogs in a pack situation, and puppies from birth to maturity. A pup learns from day one that he can be controlled by being rolled onto his back. It's not violent or aggressive, just the way the dam naturally cleans her pups. The pup learns that there is no escape so he relaxes/submits. A couple of weeks later when play fighting starts, they then learn that litter mates can also tip them over and the pup naturally knows that the quickest way to get out of a sticky situation is to flip over and submit. The dam also disciplines 'naughty' pups often with a grab or a plonk with the paw, getting the same roll response.

In my experience there is huge variation in this behaviour, between breeds and individuals but generally the more dominant the breed, the more active they are in this behaviour. My Akita bitch being the one I remember as the most attentive, active mother, very vocal and strict with her one litter of eight.

If there was a situation of an orphan litter, singleton pup or very dominant pup not getting his fair share of rolling, then I would use this technique, and have done so. I would like to think that this may have saved problems later on in life.

As for performing this on mature adults, I have great respect for those who do it humanely, safely and effectively.


The defining feature of a meme is that it can evolve. If there is a general misunderstanding in the application of the theory, and reading the posts on Dogsey, I don't believe there is though this is of course is only a tiny selection of the dog owning community, then this can evolve without losing the basic understanding of how dogs and humans interact.




Not sure why I used the term alpha, just going with the flow I suppose. And yes, I think it is just semantics. I don't see any difference between alpha, leader, the boundary setter.... they all mean the same to me – the person who is in charge.

I do though see that the connotations associated with terms like - dominance, alpha, pack leader etc do cause a problem for some people but what's important here is not how we see ourselves, but how our dogs see us and fortunately, dogs don't have this problem with semantics. They have a natural respect for a leader who behaves as an alpha should ie with calm assertiveness, whether or not the owner is aware of the fact that their dogs see them this way.

Brilliant post, Pod, I have just read it through twice to make sure I understood it.

Your last paragraph sums up completely and in a nutshell what Cesar Millan is all about. Well done !

I know! I'm also pushed for time at the moment so apologies for not being more complete in my answers

Understand what you mean, although as you also point out:

It's fairly clear that some at least who use the terms dominance, alpha etc aren't using it in the way others would (not sure how that can be avoided as definitions have become a bit clouded perhaps?) but I tend to avoid such terms as I feel that any mention of "dominance" and owners tend to think almost straight away that it can mean the necessity to be physical (ie the old alpha roll or pinning)or just refusing to "give in" to the dog when in fact the dog just needs some good training and showing what is required).

We've just got back from a long, long walk with our farmer friend crop walking with him (he owns Woody, son of Hal). We piled all three dogs ... all entire males consisting of Woody, Hal and the labrador) into the back of the Range Rover. To start with, peace reigned, but then when us humans started to get in, some growling kicked off. Our friend just went round the back of the car, opened the hatch and placed his hand round Woody and Tai's muzzles and very assertively instructed them without raising his voice to behave. Instant peace and off we drove. Walked about 3 miles inspecting crops, the dogs ranged free, following scents of deer and rabbit, swam across a couple of ponds Tai included, had a whale of a time. No growling, just happy dogs. They jumped back into the back of the Range Rover, took up their positions and settled down, as calm and well behaved as you like. 3 entire males in a small space barely big enough for 2 dogs, let alone 3. I was very impressed and all done with calm assertive energy, reminding the boys who was boss ... and it was not them.

Tai is now in the conservatory demolishing a rib of beef bone!

Just wanted to say I'm so glad I've found some people who also like CM! I have ordered his book and have watched most of the TV shows. I came from anothe forum where a few people believed CM is a 'bully' and I did think to myself that maybe I was a bully too because I like his methods

My dog responds very well to a 'firm' approach (he's a teenage terrier!), although I do use positive training for commands. But for things like stopping him barking or gtting him to go where I want him to, I find CM's methods invaluable.

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I'm working my way through it.

I have been following this thread with interest as I have been 'cherry picking' some of CM's methods to use with my 2. I don't agree with everything he does by any means. However from my own personal experience with dogs over 40 odd years I have found out that dogs will exploit what they see as a weak, ineffective and rubbish leader, which is exactly what some of the people in his series are!!! As CM himself says 'they see a vacancy and fill it' which is very true. There are aspects of his training that have certainly rung bells with me and I have put them into practice and found they work, there are other things that I wouldn't want to do. My own dog trainer uses techniques garnered from various 'schools' of training plus his own experience as an MOD/Police Dog Handler and Trainer. I don't think you can ever stop learning and you should certainly never stop asking questions and trying to improve your own techniques.

Well Sarah, if I'm a bully then my new dog loves being bullied !! I have had him just less than 14 days. He is an absolute delight, but had appallingly bad manners. He would barge past you to get to his food, to get through a door, to get down the stairs, almost knocking you over in the process! I have some severe physical injuries and have to be very careful not to be knocked down the stairs, or generally bashed, so right from the start, the instant we got him in the car from collecting him, he had to abide by OUR rules.

Now, only 12 days later, he sits and waits for his food, not moving until told. he does not barge through doorways or down the stairs. He waits in the back of our car until the lid has been raised and the protective plastic flap has been put down so he doesn't scratch the paintwork. He virtually doesn't jump up to welcome visitors any more, his recall was always very good, but we are well along the way towards stopping him from rushing across the field to say hello to other dogs.

All this has been done with CM's calm assertive energy, and starting right from the word go to set the rules, boundaries and limitations. If only we had had CM when Hal was young, we would never have had the problems we had with him. It beats me how ANYONE can say he is cruel and a bully!

Tai gets plenty of rewards. Every recall is followed by lavish praise, every patient wait for food is rewarded likewise. Love, attention, good food are lavished upon him ... but are EARNED (apart from the food of course, he would get that anyway!) not given away cheaply and therefore valulessly.

Hi TW ! I agree entirely. I'm not sure I'm a huge fan of the Illusion collar, and I def. don't like the fact that he allows his Clients to continue using choke chains and prong collars. My personal opinion is that he should at the very least strongly advise them to ditch these artificial aids, and stick with his techniques.

I don't like the way he makes dogs focus on what's in front of them when walking on the leash, not allowing them to look left or right or to stop and have a sniff. With entire males in particular, it is very important to allow them to mark their territory and to be "dogs", not machines.

Apart from these little niggles and a few others, I am a big fan.

I totally agree with you Gnasher!!! I have to say my 2 have check chain collars, this is because they constantly ate each others collars and it was costing me a fortune, so decided on check chains because it worked out cheaper in the long term!!! Prior to that they had half check collars though. I do use a gentle leader to walk them, as I have 2 and I have far more control than on an ordinary check chain and lead, however with CM's method (which I was really hesitant about trying by the way) it was a virtually instantaneous result, and I can now walk along with slack leads just laid accross the palms of my hands, girlies trotting obediently behind me - RESULT!!!!! At training I can do a complete lesson with them off lead and walking to heel, weaving through other dogs, stopping, starting, down stays, whatever - you name it. that is with BOTH girlies, one on either side, they do occasionally break ranks to investigate the treats table or see what treats someone else has, but a quick 'leave' command brings the culprit quickly to heel.

Well if CM methods can tame the Norties then there is hope for us all

Personally I love the guy