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Location: UK
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,558
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Originally Posted by
Wysiwyg
Yes, I got confused a bit
I've also replied a bit on the other thread.
I'm confused now too with all these threads converged onto the same topic.... nearly missed this!
Can you give an example?
Then again we have the wolf pack vs. dog pack or as some believe now family group..learning anything from wolf packs may not be the way to go to help us understand more about how to live with our pet dogs.
Sorry no, I can't remember all that I've read over the years in books, not to mention the net. Which bit are you disagreeing with, assuming you are?
I think we would not have had the books like Monks of New Skete advocating alpha rolls, we'd not have had a lot of the more physical ways of training dogs. Probably not so much of any of the prominent books or tv trainers who advocate dominance methods. Perhaps even police dog Acer would not have died from being kicked after he growled at his owner, who knows? I'd have to check this more with time lines etc but at the moment that's my view.A lot of the military training was about dominating the dog but not sure what the philosophy was, again I need to look into that more. There's many things to consider really.
Ok right, I see where you're coming from now.
I see this as flaws in the application of the theory rather than the theory itself being flawed. If the reaction to this is to discount alpha theory completely with a knee-jerk response favouring 'positive' only training techniques, there is much to be lost IMO, akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
There will always be people who mistreat animals and abuse their position of alpha/leader but I don't think this is down to over zealous application of a learned training technique.... it's just how some people behave unfortunately.
Just a word on the alpha roll. I agree completely that this should never be given out in advice to anyone but I do think that it has a place. There's a lot of misunderstanding and I've seen things written like ... the dog thinks it's about to be killed!
I've spent most of my life (so far!) living with multiple dogs in a pack situation, and puppies from birth to maturity. A pup learns from day one that he can be controlled by being rolled onto his back. It's not violent or aggressive, just the way the dam naturally cleans her pups. The pup learns that there is no escape so he relaxes/submits. A couple of weeks later when play fighting starts, they then learn that litter mates can also tip them over and the pup naturally knows that the quickest way to get out of a sticky situation is to flip over and submit. The dam also disciplines 'naughty' pups often with a grab or a plonk with the paw, getting the same roll response.
In my experience there is huge variation in this behaviour, between breeds and individuals but generally the more dominant the breed, the more active they are in this behaviour. My Akita bitch being the one I remember as the most attentive, active mother, very vocal and strict with her one litter of eight.
If there was a situation of an orphan litter, singleton pup or very dominant pup not getting his fair share of rolling, then I would use this technique, and have done so. I would like to think that this may have saved problems later on in life.
As for performing this on mature adults, I have great respect for those who do it humanely, safely and effectively.
Oh yes!
but once something is a meme it's hard to get rid of in culture as you know.
The defining feature of a meme is that it can evolve. If there is a general misunderstanding in the application of the theory, and reading the posts on Dogsey, I don't believe there is though this is of course is only a tiny selection of the dog owning community, then this can evolve without losing the basic understanding of how dogs and humans interact.
I certainly set boundaries but would never call myself alpha
Can I ask why you use that term or feel it's the best term in relation to your boundary making? Maybe it is just semantics but I'm not sure?
Not sure why I used the term alpha, just going with the flow I suppose. And yes, I think it is just semantics. I don't see any difference between alpha, leader, the boundary setter.... they all mean the same to me – the person who is in charge.
I do though see that the connotations associated with terms like - dominance, alpha, pack leader etc do cause a problem for some people but what's important here is not how we see ourselves, but how our dogs see us and fortunately, dogs don't have this problem with semantics. They have a natural respect for a leader who behaves as an alpha should ie with calm assertiveness, whether or not the owner is aware of the fact that their dogs see them this way.