Absolutely! I agree too! Well said!

Yes, I think they should be banned, mostly because I think they are completely unnecessary (not to mention vile and barbaric) and just a lazy way out of taking the time to teach a dog to walk properly. I am amazed that they have been compared to haltis and harnesses Pressure and pain are two very different things, and the amount of pressure inflicted by a harness pretty negligent, which is why most harnesses don't actually stop the dog from pulling at all but can even encourage it. As for harnesses being as cruel as a prong, well you might as well ban collars while you're at it if that's the case. It's much kinder to walk a sighthound with a slender, sensitive neck and throat on a harness than it is a collar or a martingale imho.

Yes they should. Any device that inflicts pain upon a dog or any animal should be banned.

I have seen instances where those harnesses with cords that tighten under the front legs when the dog pulls have caused raw painful sores there.

Greyhound and whippet collars are wide to spread the pressure so they don't hurt. You wouldn't want a working hunting dog to be put off going after prey by an uncomfortable yank if they lunged forward.

Another problem with harnesses is dogs can easily slip some of them, merely by stepping backwards out of them, which can lead to pain and injuries, or death, when it happens near traffic or other hazards.

Pressure and pain can be degrees of the same thing- excessive pressure causes pain.

No I don't like prong collars, and once saw a dog with a circle of regularly spaced, paired, scabs round its neck that could only have come from a prong collar.

However, aside from sores from harnesses I have also seen flat collars totally and very painfully embedded in dog's necks when the collar has been out on and not changed as the dog grows (likewise headcollars on horses).

Pretty much anything can be used in an abusive and painful way through ignorance, carelessness or deliberate cruelty, including noise phobic dogs being terrorised when chased by children with clickers

My dog wears a fleece lined perfect fit harness, and I think I'd notice if she started developing sores since she presents her belly for rubs at least forty times a day She is not a working dog, who are generally worked on slip leads if anything, not martingales afaik

As for pressure and pain being the same thing, if the pressure is intense enough to hurt then it's passed into the realm of pain surely. I am experiencing pressure just sat on my couch, pressure is not necessarily a bad thing and I have never had a problem with a dog in a harness.

Of course they have the potential to be harmful if used incorrectly, but doesn't everything? The difference between prongs and harnesses is that prongs are of course intended to be harmful, regardless of correct usage the collar is going to cause pain.

My point is that not everyone does use things correctly, nor looks after their dog well enough to notice any early problems with equipment fit and rubs and sores.

You looking after your dog and not having problems with harnesses unfortunately does not mean no one else's dog has ever had harness problems.

I am sure you would never allow a flat collar to embed in your dogs neck either.

I didn't say pressure and pain were the same, some pressure can be enjoyable, such as stroking or massage. I said excessive pressure become painful, so there is a gradual overlap which can to some extent be about personal perception of the individual e.g. Weight pulling dogs will voluntarily put a lot of pressure on their harness and many bull breeds love hard rough and tumble that more sensitive dogs would yelp at.

Working gun dogs are often worked on slip leads, but they should not be lunging after game anyway. Whippet and greyhound traditional collars are not martingales (which are half checks), and wide sighthound collars can come with a connected lead and an instant quick release clip for working when the clip releases the whole collar from the dog's neck (the collar remains attached to the lead in the handler's hand), not the lead from the collar.

A standard slip lead would check a sight hound, on a narrow band, i.e a lot of sudden pressure/compression on a very narrow area of neck, This could inhibit a sensitive dog from being so eager to chase in future, being the same procedure as is used in some anti chase training methods whereby a lead check on a slip lead, check chain or indeed prong collar is used to inhibit chasing and lunging.

Aside from minimising pressure (and jerk) by spreading the load over a wide area, the other reason for the width of traditional sighthound collars is to prevent the dog accidentally slipping the collar, as they don't slip over their heads, given that their heads are not really any wider than their necks, unlike many other breeds.

To keep the discussion balanced, prong collars are not "intended to be harmful". They are designed to be an aversive deterrent to pulling, which isn't to say that they don't cause harm.

I reiterate I have seen harm caused by these, and I do not like them, but I have also also seen physical harm caused by harnesses and flat collars and emotional harm caused by clickers.

yes, the only place they belong is in a dog museum. - They are barbaric and cruel and serve no purpose.

Just to add a little to the discussion here's a video of a dog trainer letting his dog use a prong collar on him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N_t4kFz8bg

As for me personally I don't really have a side. I believe they can be safe and helpful if used by certain people. Most people though I wouldn't trust with a dog in the first place let alone a prong collar.

It depends what you classify by harm. By their very design Prong collars are designed to assert pressure and discomfort in a way that can cause pain. So yes they are designed to cause harm the samd way Choke chains are. Personally I would want them to ban Prong collars along with Choke chains which are just as barbaric and have no place in Dog training.

Yes Yes Yes