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Willow
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30-12-2005, 08:23 PM

How do I teach the difference between Heel and Close?

Well I think I have found a decent club for us to go too, but they dont start until the 12th, as they are on a Xmas Holiday. The trainer sounds very nice and has invited us to watch any class we want and if we like it then we can join in the following week. Its's just a pet obediance class I think at the moment, then if we are any good I'll look more to finding a competition training class.

So whilst I'm still quite excited about starting at a new club and getting into a new doggy sport. (Well I did obedience about 6 years ago but have forgotten a lot of it) but after looking at different pics again and things like that I've wondering how some people get their dogs working very close to their legs when doing heelwork ? It looks like the dogs heads are stuck with velcro to the handlers legs ! When I did it years ago we just had the dog at heel and it didnt have to have it's head touching the handlers leg. So how do you teach that ?

Both my dogs will walk to heel off lead, Casper has done much much more heelwork training (I did a bit of Working Trials training with him) Jack has always just been rewarded for coming back and walking within say a foot of me, on walks. But in the house, his eyes are on me and he does beautiful heelwork, I use the command 'Close' for that, but if I was to go on and do obedience if I ever manage to teach the 'velcro' action I would use the command 'Heel'. So ... how do you go about teaching that ? I have thought about this a bit today and cant seem to figure out how I would teach the dog to target his head on my leg. Both my dogs have been clicker trained and Jack is very quick to pick up on things but any starting points would be a great help

Thanks
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Shadowboxer
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30-12-2005, 08:47 PM
Personally I would not worry about the 'velcro' heeling - in fact, I know of judges who will take points off if the dog is perceived by them to be crowding the handler. If your dog heels in the correct position (shoulder aligned with the outside seam of your trouser leg) that is all that is required. You should lose no points at all if your dog is looking straight ahead and not touching you rather than leaning on your leg & screwing its neck round to look at you. For some dogs that twisting of the neck is physically very difficult.
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sportsmonki
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04-01-2006, 12:10 AM
Personally I prefer my dog to touch my leg (but not to lean on as this will be marked). I would say it is desirable to have that contact so that you can 'feel' what each other is doing/going to do, but I am still very new to the sport, and so I have little experience to draw upon here, sorry.

There are a few ways of teaching the heelwork position. It really depends on what works best with your dog and you. It might be a good idea to get some help from someone who works competitive obedience, as they can see whether you are rewarding the dog in the correct position or not.

My cocker learns better when I am more 'hands-on', guiding her into the position I want from her; my collie prefers me to lure her with food in my left hand so that she can work out for herself what I am asking of her.

Good Luck,

sportsmonki
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JoedeeUK
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04-01-2006, 01:51 AM
In the UK the current"fashion"for lots of judges(not me I hasten to add) is"style" ie a very high head carriage & the high stepping front legs(hackney horse comes to mind)as well as very "tight"heel position. I personally would not teach my dogs tp work in this fashion as it fails to fulfil the requirement of"working in a natural manner"

I teach my dogs off lead in heelwork & everything else at home. Obviously at the training club my dogs have to be on lead & I use a small "hand loop"lead that is about a foot in length.

I start with no left, right or about turns doing clockwise & anticlockwise circles at home & as my current dog is not into treats during training I use a toy as a reward & attention gainer in my left hand but this can be a treat & I use the comnmand"watch"BTW & he only gets the reward(game of tuggy with the toy)when we have competed a few steps of correct heelwork at first & gradually I extend this to a full circle

A lot of handlers get their dog to touch their hand during heelwork(I've judged such dogs & they get marked by me for it)

Once my dogs have got the idea of where their front end should be I start training on the whole body position & use a length of straight wall or fence on my left working quite closely to it so the dog has to walk straight. The same rules apply re reward for a few steps of correct heework at first 7 gradually length the stretch of heelwork

Rjj is different to the other dogs I have trained as he is a smooth coated Bc & so i have worked very hard on him keeping his body straight as it is much more obvious if his front & rear are even slightly off line & he is coming along quite well

I've never used a clicker & it wouldn't work with Rjj as he definitely isn't a titbit interested dog & you can't really use a toy as reward with a clicker

Hope this is some help
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Kicks
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04-01-2006, 01:26 PM
hate to contradict you joedee uk - but in my opinion you can use a toy to reward for a clicker - both of my "young" dogs have been trained using clicker and toy as I dislike using titbits when doing agility and I find it easier to keep the same reward method. They both are very responsive to commands and pick up new things quickly. The purpose of a clicker is to signal that an action was correct and a reward will follow - the reward is entirely dependant on the dog and to say that you can't use a toy in the same sentence as saying you wouldn't use a clicker seems a bit of a contradiction, clicker training isn't for everybody but if it isnt for you don't knock it!

Although we don't compete in obedience (due to time restraints - agility, flyball and herding tend to take up most weekends) they both train to a competitive level in ob. and HTM (by competitive level I mean they could be entered into a competition any time and are ready for it).

My young ESS works heelwork without the "style" but inline with my leg (not touching) but he is very consistent and maintains the same distance from the leg. My young Aus. Kelpie naturally adopted the "velcro" style, he likes to be able to watch my face and he prefers to have contact, for him it is more comfortable so I adapted his training to suit - I wouldn't try and "force" a dog to adopt that position... Like Joedee said I'd start off with straight lines and build on that, but this will also depend on the class structure - the way of training (or so we've found) differs depending on the wanted outcome - so a pet class is going to go for a generally well behaved dog rather than a sharply responsive competition dog.

H xxx
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Willow
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04-01-2006, 02:03 PM
Thanks for the advice guys

I too use a toy with a clicker as that is what my flatcoat is mad about .. Toys. They are THE best thing in the world for him. If I was doing obedience with the flattie I could guide him into position, using my hands to show him, but as I have been only handling him the past 3 years, I'm having to learn new techniques all over again with my golden.

He's not a hands on dog, I would have to lure him where I wanted his head and that is the bit I am having trouble with, how do I lure him into the 'velcro' fashion. He was scruffed a bit as a puppy (not by me I hasten to add!) and even 4 years later he is nervous about having his neck touched. He's absolutely fine about having his head touched and neck when having a cuddle but I know that if he was at heel with me (he does this beautifully off lead) and I went to guide his head with my hands, he would tense up and crouch down a bit. But getting back to this, when he does heel work he is about 6 inches from my leg when he does it. It's the working in closer with a lure that I'm getting stuck on. I would use a clicker with a titbit as toys he can take or leave.

I had the idea that if I got him excited through toys I could get the high-stepping action that I have seen other dogs do. But one thing at a time and I need to get him working in closer than what he is doing, I have thought of using a target stick as he does about them and how they work. I have never used a target stick though for heel work. I think it's going to be a steep learning curve !

Once again, thanks for all the help
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Kicks
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04-01-2006, 02:44 PM
Hiya Willow,

Re. a touchstick... after what you've said about him being a bit nervous i'd say this would be a good method to use in order to lead him into position. You don't actually have to buy a touchstick to do it. The way we teach ours to use it is to start with a clear plastic disc - a pringles lid is perfect! teach him to touch this using his nose (general clicker work), you can then fasten this onto a short piece of bamboo or similar and start getting him used to moving to touch it, after a little time he'll start following the "touch point" with his nose and you can recondition using the clicker so that he follows it rather than touching it, start by walking him at his normal distance following the touch stick, before trying for the head position hold the target higher to induce the high stepping movement - it's easier to do this at a slightly faster pace in order to increase the movement in energy, once he's doing this you can shorten the touch stick until you are holding it to your side and he's "watching you"... all this needs to be done over time in short bursts so he doesnt get bored, the high-stepping, head carrying movement can be quite hard for them to maintain for a long period of time at first so keep sessions to 5-10 minutes. It's also best to do this off lead.

Another common way to teach the "watch" is to sit them at heel and then click and reward for eye contact - however from what you've said it sounds like this training wouldn't hold up to being added into his current heelwork so maybe better to try the more upbeat method?

Hope that helps, I tought my nervous older kelpie heelwork using a touchstick like this as she came from a home where obedience had been beaten into her and she was terrified of being on a leader and of being touched whilst being in the heel position, now she can do heelwork with the best of them (even if she is getting a bit stiff - bless her) and managed to get 4 placings at the one obedience show she ever did - she much prefers agility as she was always cautious doing obedience so we dropped it as her general behaviour was always excellent and we figured she'd had enough heart ache already... We just wanted to show her that it didnt have to be awful and she quite likes working with the little peeps! (toddlers) when they're copying their parents training

Hope that helps

H xxx
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Willow
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05-01-2006, 03:17 PM
Excellent Thanks Kickstart


PS My old kelpie sounds a LOT like your old girl I say old but she's 17.5 now, my girl is black (and grey) though and not a red cloud like yours are.
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JoedeeUK
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05-01-2006, 04:31 PM
I use my toys differently from clicker trainers & to add a clicker then the toy as a reward wouldn't be appropriate. Think you missed the fact I do not use a lead for heelwork I use the toy as the lure

Each to their own Clickers have been around for years & years in animal training just not my thing especially as you cannot use them in sheepdog training out on the hills

You do "herding" with your dogs not traditional sheepdog trialling then ?
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JoedeeUK
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05-01-2006, 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by Willow
Thanks for the advice guys

I too use a toy with a clicker as that is what my flatcoat is mad about .. Toys. They are THE best thing in the world for him. If I was doing obedience with the flattie I could guide him into position, using my hands to show him, but as I have been only handling him the past 3 years, I'm having to learn new techniques all over again with my golden.

He's not a hands on dog, I would have to lure him where I wanted his head and that is the bit I am having trouble with, how do I lure him into the 'velcro' fashion. He was scruffed a bit as a puppy (not by me I hasten to add!) and even 4 years later he is nervous about having his neck touched. He's absolutely fine about having his head touched and neck when having a cuddle but I know that if he was at heel with me (he does this beautifully off lead) and I went to guide his head with my hands, he would tense up and crouch down a bit. But getting back to this, when he does heel work he is about 6 inches from my leg when he does it. It's the working in closer with a lure that I'm getting stuck on. I would use a clicker with a titbit as toys he can take or leave.

I had the idea that if I got him excited through toys I could get the high-stepping action that I have seen other dogs do. But one thing at a time and I need to get him working in closer than what he is doing, I have thought of using a target stick as he does about them and how they work. I have never used a target stick though for heel work. I think it's going to be a steep learning curve !

Once again, thanks for all the help
Be careful when going for the high stepping style as this can & frequently does(from a judges viewpoint)throw the back end out & lose you marks
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