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celli
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01-09-2012, 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by MickB View Post
This would be all well and good if the dogs were actually working hard - pulling sleds in arctic conditions for 30 miles+ each day. Here in the UK however, this is extremely unlikely to be the case So, unless our dogs are training hard, day after day, not only do they not need high protein, high energy food, it can actually cause serious problems. A dog on such food is producing prodigious amounts of energy, but without the outlet of hard running sled work in cold conditions, the energy tends to make the dog hyper and uncontrollable. It is the equivalent of dosing yourself with amphetamine for a quiet day at home.



Mick
But high protein isn't high energy, protein in a dog is used for the repair and maintainance of organs and cells, any excess protein is excreted, protein is actually a very poor source of energy and is only used in the absence of carbohydrates.
Carbs on the other hand are the bodies preferred energy source, excess carbs are stored in the liver and as fat.
There are many many owners who's dogs are fed high protein, and they most certainly aren't pinging off the walls.
I don't know about Huskies, I have / had, SBT's, Tibetan Mastiff and GSD's , and I can promise, they have all been perfectly normal on high protein/raw diets.
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tawneywolf
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01-09-2012, 06:22 PM
As I understand it working huskies are fed frozen seal meat, not a bag of dried in sight!!!!!!
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smokeybear
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01-09-2012, 07:57 PM
Originally Posted by celli View Post
But high protein isn't high energy, protein in a dog is used for the repair and maintainance of organs and cells, any excess protein is excreted, protein is actually a very poor source of energy and is only used in the absence of carbohydrates.
Carbs on the other hand are the bodies preferred energy source, excess carbs are stored in the liver and as fat.
There are many many owners who's dogs are fed high protein, and they most certainly aren't pinging off the walls.
I don't know about Huskies, I have / had, SBT's, Tibetan Mastiff and GSD's , and I can promise, they have all been perfectly normal on high protein/raw diets.
I am afraid that your info on carbs and energy is based on humans rather than dogs.
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celli
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01-09-2012, 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
I am afraid that your info on carbs and energy is based on humans rather than dogs.

This from Merck

Without sufficient energy from dietary fat or carbohydrate, dietary protein ordinarily used for growth or maintenance of body functions is less efficiently converted to energy. Too little high biologic protein in the diet, relative to the energy density, can cause an apparent protein deficiency.

I thought I had saved research papers on protein and carbs in dogs, but can't find the ruddy things, I'll keep looking.
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tawneywolf
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01-09-2012, 08:49 PM
As I understand it, dogs make their own carbs from animal fats, and their digestive system is not geared to utilising the type of carbs we humans are forcing upon them. My dogs have never had grains or biscuit with their food and have always been perfectly healthy with high energy levels, my 7 months old pup runs round like a lunatic and she has never had any biscuit etc in her life.
When I had horses then yes I used to watch the protein levels in the feed I was giving, my last mare used to go pretty loopy if I wasn't careful with what she ate, I followed the maxim 'food must follow work' as I used to do a fair amount of Distance Riding she thrived on that on very low protein as I think that was the way she was made, she didn't need to be hyped up in any way whatsoever.
However with dogs, I really cannot understand this instance on feeding them what is really a herbivores diet, sprayed to imitate a carnivores diet!!!! A dog is geared to process protein and convert it to suit its needs, it is not designed to imitate the herbivore
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smokeybear
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01-09-2012, 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by celli View Post
This from Merck

Without sufficient energy from dietary fat or carbohydrate, dietary protein ordinarily used for growth or maintenance of body functions is less efficiently converted to energy. Too little high biologic protein in the diet, relative to the energy density, can cause an apparent protein deficiency.

I thought I had saved research papers on protein and carbs in dogs, but can't find the ruddy things, I'll keep looking.
There is no proven need for carbohydrates in a dog's diet. Even the Waltham site states this!
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celli
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01-09-2012, 10:12 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
There is no proven need for carbohydrates in a dog's diet. Even the Waltham site states this!
Ah, we're at cross purposes here
I wasn't suggesting that dogs need carbs, they don't, certainly not in the amounts in most dog foods, what I was getting at is that carbs are used by the dogs body in preference to protein, protein is used as a source of energy, but not as well as carbs ( and fat ), the primary roll of protein is for cell and organ repair and health, not as an energy source. So taking a dog of a supposed high protein diet to calm them down ( in the majority of dogs ) doesn't work.
I don't think I'm explaining myself very well, but I agree, there is no proven need for large amounts of carbs ( if any ) just that a dogs body can use protein for the same roll as carbs.
Hell, I'm confusing myself now
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MerlinsMum
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02-09-2012, 12:08 AM
Originally Posted by celli View Post
calm them down ( in the majority of dogs ) doesn't work.
I don't think I'm explaining myself very well, but I agree, there is no proven need for large amounts of carbs ( if any ) just that a dogs body can use protein for the same roll as carbs.
Hell, I'm confusing myself now
I understood you.
It goes back to the fact that dogs were originally carnivores, with perhaps only a limited ability to tolerate non-animal matter in the diet, and their digestive tracts have not changed since then.

But sometime about 15-20,000 years ago they became scavengers and adapted to having carbs in their diet if necessary.

Cats and ferrets among others are still obligate carnivores, there is absolutely no place in their diet for carbs, veg or grains, yet the pet food manufacturers insist on including these elements, as the [majority] seem to tolerate them and it means making pet food becomes easier (it's hard to make a biscuit without grains, and kibble is a form of biscuit) and cheaper.

The obligate carnivores utilise excess protein by turning it into energy, which is what they have always done very efficiently. Dogs can do this too, and do it well, as anyone who raw feeds will understand; which begs the question whether they may also be obligate carnivores when in an ideal situation, but when a flesh and bone diet is not available to them, they merely 'make do'.

You're right - carbs have a very small rôle, and are primarily a 'human' invention via the processed diet.

I add veg to my raw fed dog's diet, but the fact I have to blitz it first in a blender means I am processing it, therefore I am feeding processed food. He can't utilise it unless the cell walls are broken down either by blending or cooking.

I've stopped adding veg over the last 3 months as he's not been getting as much exercise as usual [ exceptional family circumstances] but that was the first thing I did, as carbs and sugars are present in the veg, and it has worked well.

I've just started adding a small amount of pulped veg again as he seems to be itchier - that may be the moult after the weird summer we've had! - but anecdotally, many people have found a small amount of veg, particularly green veg such as spinach, can help to calm dogs with itchy skin.

I would put that down to micro-nutrients or even plant sterols - I understand adding a supplement such as Dorwest Keepers Mix does the same job, but have not gone down that route as yet.
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tawneywolf
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02-09-2012, 03:01 PM
Putting veg through a blender imitates the first stage of digestion in a herbivore, the idea behind it being that when eating a kill the stomach contents are eaten,i.e. partially digested vegetable matter. However I have heard that this is a fallacy, not sure if it is true or not to be honest. I do add veg to my girls' food, I steam it because I want to bulk their food out because they do so well on their raw diet they are on extremely small meals,and I feel a real meanie
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celli
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02-09-2012, 06:56 PM
Thanks Sue, you've put it much better than I did,
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