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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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23-08-2011, 12:05 PM
funny but sadly spot on all at the same time
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Cov Luke
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23-08-2011, 12:25 PM
Originally Posted by tazer View Post
Cesar's way

Have a perfect furry robot in 30 minutes all it requires is:

That you accept that dog's only have 2 settings, dominant and submissive.
Any reactions/behaviours other than ones you request are the dog being dominant. Don't worry if your dog appears afraid of something, it isn't, it is only afraid of not being dominant over it.

When alpha rolling your dog:
Don't be in anyway alarmed if your dog tries to fight it, it is only miffed that it is losing its dominance over you.
It couldn't possibly be reacting out of fear/confusion at being man-handled for reasons it doesn't understand. No, that kind of thinking is just silly.

When Stringing up your dog:
Again don't be alarmed if your dog fights it, its not a fight/flight reflex inniciated by having its airway restricted by the slip lead. It is just having a tantrum because you're asserting your dominance and its not getting its own way.
Make no mistake, when your dog allows you to pin it, it is out of respect to your alpha status. Notbecause it is oxygen deprived, scared but now lacks the strength/will to continue fighting.

When using an ecollar on your dog:
Firstly, remember to combine the shock with the tsst noise, this will insure your dog understands that the tsst is something to be obeyed. Otherwise your dog may think you want to play. Remember, play is just a cute/fun way of your dog saying it is incharge and not, because play and affection are enjoyable for the both of you.

When directly using the shock to assert your dominance:
Understand that the dog knows this and knows exactly why that uncomfortable/painful stimulas is being issued. It is because you want him/her to avoid the sound of car dors closing, or to not sniff that patch of grass or p on that lamp post...or was it that you didn't want them to chase the cat. Oh now I'm confused.

Please note:

Finger jabbing, nudging/kicking your dog are perfectly acceptable methods to use too. After all, you're doing what all dogs already do to each other.

Also, it is perfectly acceptable (provided it is for the tv) to employ people to windup your dog before you go infront of the camera to rehabilitate it. It isn't reinforcing the dog's behaviour, it is simply making the show more exciting for the viewers.

Of course, it is also entertaining for you the dog's owner/trainer to watch your dog/human agressive dog try and bite the target of its agression and fail. Never mind that it is the very thing that has been frustrating you for who knows how long.

Eta
This post is rated H for intended humour.
Im sure when the program was first being rolled out it was and probably still is scrutinsed by the relevant authorities therefore if any acts of cruelty were being performed it certainly wouldnt be aird on tv screens in todays modern world. How you view the techniques is your way of looking at it, yes maybe they do intend on getting the dogs to bark at people for the camera as it wouldnt really have ny solid body to it if they were advertising a programme called the dog whispere yet failed to record the dogs actually doing what it is thats the problem. How many times as owners have we said to people oh he or she will do this or that only to stand there looking lke a tit because the dog doesnt want to tow the line so to say. The trouble is a lot of people thinm canines think like we do as humans, and the fact is they dont, theyre basic animals who are intelligent to learn something we teach them and thats it, they dont have rationalisation or opinions like our mind does.
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smokeybear
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23-08-2011, 12:28 PM
Originally Posted by CesarMillanFan View Post
theyre basic animals who are intelligent to learn something we teach them and thats it, they dont have rationalisation or opinions like our mind does.

Oh so they cannot learn without us to teach them?!
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Cov Luke
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23-08-2011, 12:37 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
Oh so they cannot learn without us to teach them?!
oh here we go, there's always one that reads too much into what you write and comes up with something that was never meant in that way pmsl
do I really have to go into great detail of everything i write or will people just generally get the point?

P.S Smokey bear I meant that in a non disrespectful way
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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23-08-2011, 12:46 PM
Originally Posted by CesarMillanFan View Post
Im sure when the program was first being rolled out it was and probably still is scrutinsed by the relevant authorities therefore if any acts of cruelty were being performed it certainly wouldnt be aird on tv screens in todays modern world.

His methods HAVE been described as cruel by most of the training organisations in the UK and there was actually enough evidence put forward in a few countries that his shows have been banned from TV
The problems with animal cruelty like this is the history that has gone on in the past in dog training, the people scrutinising the show are not animal experts they are people who are seeing the end results and thinking the ends justifies the means
there is nothing magical out there - if it looks cruel it IS cruel
lifting a dogs front legs off the ground with a noose round his neck is not training, no matter what pretty words people are blinded with how can it be anything OTHER than cruel?


How you view the techniques is your way of looking at it, yes maybe they do intend on getting the dogs to bark at people for the camera as it wouldnt really have ny solid body to it if they were advertising a programme called the dog whispere yet failed to record the dogs actually doing what it is thats the problem. How many times as owners have we said to people oh he or she will do this or that only to stand there looking lke a tit because the dog doesnt want to tow the line so to say. The trouble is a lot of people thinm canines think like we do as humans, and the fact is they dont, theyre basic animals who are intelligent to learn something we teach them and thats it, they dont have rationalisation or opinions like our mind does.
Every study we are finding more and more new and amazing things about a dogs mind
it is arrogent to assume that we are the only creatures with certain feelings
emotions and everything else are things that have evolved
so it makes sense to assume that ALL mammals will have some forms of emotions and thought processes like us
some more developed, some less

Lets face it, many people say that only humans are able to love
yet there are animals who pine away and die when a partner is lost
dont think anyone would ever love me that much!

dogs are in some ways more smart than us, and in some ways they are less smart
we are all different

but to make the excuse because we feel superior to them that it is OK to punish them, scare them, electrocute them

when we could show our bigger brains and greater compassion and empithy by guiding and teaching our dogs gently and kindly

both methods work - why choose force?
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Cov Luke
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23-08-2011, 01:04 PM
i dont see it as cruel, our oldest dog has been reared with these methods and loves us to the point pines when either one of us is away, when i was in hospital a few weeks ago, she was different according to my partner, I gotta admit im on the fence over the whole dog dies if its owner dies, mainly due to the fact i see countless dogs at rescue homes from where the owners have sadly passed away, but this is just my opinion. It would be interesting to see what countries have banned his programme though.
We should also look at ourselves then for keeping fish in a tank, or birds in a cage or rabbits in a hutch or rodents inside a small cage only to come out into a small ball, where does it end, lifting a dog up is not something ive had to do as our eldest was too small anyway but my brother has a staffy that pulls forward half choking itself by pulling on its collar, wheres the difference?
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Krusewalker
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23-08-2011, 01:12 PM
[QUOTE=Trouble;2335831]
Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
fair dues, we should all show respects to each other.

i dont think you can say CM gave your friend a 'magic pill' though, if you dont know what it was?
im thinking it may have been something others dog trainers would have said as well?[/quote]

That may be very true but what you have to ask yourself is would they have gone to or listened to any other trainer. If all he did was teach them something many other trainers would have done, then there is no harm done.
good points but not what I was referring to when I asked cesar milan fan my questions
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Chris
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23-08-2011, 01:13 PM
We are learning more and more about how our dogs think, learn and 'feel'. We've come a long way from the thinking that dogs couldn't think at all and now all the evidence suggests that they are sentient beings with more reasoning power than they have ever been credited with.

The ingenuity and reasoning power our dogs have can be nurtured or it can be suppressed - much like children. Nurture it and we are constantly amazed at their power of thought
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smokeybear
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23-08-2011, 01:16 PM
James O'Heare would agree.

His book Training for Creativity, Persistence, Inudstrousness, Resilience and Behavioural Well Being demonstrates the possibility and value of such thinking.
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tazer
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23-08-2011, 02:11 PM
Winding up the dogs happens before the camera rolls, yes, there is footage of it and yes, Cesar thought it was quite funny.

He is there to train/rehabilitate the dog, winding it up/reinforcing the behaviour he is there to eliminate is nothing but counter productive to that process. It also makes no sence given that he will tell the owner/s that the reason why the dog behaves like that is because the dog thinks he/she is dominant over them. By his/his crew members actions, they have allowed (given Cesar's views) the dog to be dominant over him/them, doing the very thing he accuses the owner of.

So you think bullying/intimidating dogs into aquiescence is perfectly acceptable?

One has to wonder, what is wrong with actually taking the time to educate dogs, so that they understand what the hell it is we want from them.

One also has to wonder, why having a dog that obeys out of fear/intimidation is preferable to one who does what you ask because they enjoy it/want to.

I've currently got a dog reactive dog, now I could bully and intimidate him into submission and call it cured, it would be quick but would it be right? I think not.

I'd rather teach my dog to think/react in a different way, than not to think at all. Yes, re-educating him is/will continue to take more time, effort, patience, money and on the not so good days cause frustration. But the way I try to see it, is that I'm learning too and that imo, is always a good thing.
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