register for free
View our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
Our sister sites
Corinthian
Dogsey Junior
Corinthian is offline  
Location: Over the Pond
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 43
Male 
 
28-07-2011, 03:52 AM
There is no need to give the alternative time. It's, for the most part, based on false ideas. There is the wrong-headed belief that alternative ideas need to be given equal time. Well, crap is crap.

A recent article in the Guardian also makes this point. Some ideas do not deserve to be discussed along science. Millan and his dominance/alpha, be-the-leader schlock should not be given time along a more evidence based approach to training.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...hange-sceptics
Reply With Quote
rune
Dogsey Veteran
rune is offline  
Location: cornwall uk
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,132
Female 
 
28-07-2011, 07:18 AM
I am going to stick my neck out here---I know EXACTLY what the OP means about the purely positive thing.

There are times when a kissy kissy noise simply doesn't hack it----times when a dog/pup is going to 'snipe' at other dogs especially. It really gets me cross when the pup is not corrected for the behaviour and the owner ends up with a dog whose area of supposed control gets bigger and bigger and they then have a problem. Personal space is one thing but a 50 yd exclusion area is quite another!

I have lots of dogs in and out and if unacceptable behaviour happens they are told it is unacceptable. TBF it is rare. I have had the odd dog stand by me and repel the rest----that is not on. Nor is big serious arguing over things on the floor. Nor is beating other dogs up.

Benj is bullying Pippin a bit----difficult to stop but not imposible but I certainly have to raise my voice.

I haven't had a real handbag session for ages (years) but if it does happen I will stop in any way I can. In the past I have been physical in such situations now I am probably tighter and jump more on smaller things----maybe that makes for a more secure group.

I think this thread is important and relevant but I also think that for a huge majority of dogs and situations the kissy kissy works and does less damage than a badly timed and harsh correction would.

rune
Reply With Quote
waggytail
Dogsey Junior
waggytail is offline  
Location: UK
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 199
Female 
 
28-07-2011, 07:39 AM
I have just returned to this thread... I believe a lot of the confusion has stemed from the way I have worded this particular post..Therefore I will make some clarification:

Please bear with me as I am also still learning how to use "quotes"

Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
A quick word on "physical corrections".... yanking, pushing, poking etc

Yanking, pushing etc are words I used as examples...these Words are often associated with the term "Physical correction" implying that the term always means something forceful or cruel. I do not believe this to be true.

This should always be a method for "getting the dogs attention" NEVER to hurt the dog.

...to me, a "Physical correction" can refer to any technique where you would physically handle or move the dog. It is simply another form of communicating to your dog, to guide them or to help get their attention (particulary useful in very distracting or emergency situations)


I always liken this to getting a persons attention in a noisy or crowded place: the dog is distracted or he is faced with a strong impulse/temptation, therefore You have to be "punchy" enough to cut through this. The correct technique should put a dog "off balance" rather than to push him over or drag him along.

The "crowded, noisy room" is merely a way of trying to help people understand the level of distraction in a situation, I'm thinking of scenerios when a dog would struggle to hear/listen, an example of a strong impulse might be a cat or a squirrel.

A "punchy" response may be to turn away quickly and walk off in the opposite direction, as a result there will be a momentary degree of tension on the lead, the dog will be "Put off balance" and turn to join you. I do not believe it is acceptable to yank or drag the dog, once I have the attention I can encourage them to follow me.

Equally as important..As soon as the dog responds to you, keep them with you using high value praise/rewards.

It often makes me wonder but people seem perfectly happy to see a dog pulling its owner down the street, straining on the lead, choking and spluttering. but if they see the owner jerk the dog so much as once they would say this was being cruel?


I'm sorry if I have not been clear in my posts, As a previous poster has already mentioned it is sometimes difficult to express in the right words as so many terms and phrases are now very emotive. This has certainly made me think about some of the words I use and have used for many years as I see how easily I can be judged and misunderstood
Reply With Quote
Chris
Dogsey Veteran
Chris is offline  
Location: Lincolnshire
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 9,080
Female 
 
28-07-2011, 08:01 AM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
I am going to stick my neck out here---I know EXACTLY what the OP means about the purely positive thing.

There are times when a kissy kissy noise simply doesn't hack it----times when a dog/pup is going to 'snipe' at other dogs especially. It really gets me cross when the pup is not corrected for the behaviour and the owner ends up with a dog whose area of supposed control gets bigger and bigger and they then have a problem. Personal space is one thing but a 50 yd exclusion area is quite another!

I have lots of dogs in and out and if unacceptable behaviour happens they are told it is unacceptable. TBF it is rare. I have had the odd dog stand by me and repel the rest----that is not on. Nor is big serious arguing over things on the floor. Nor is beating other dogs up.

Benj is bullying Pippin a bit----difficult to stop but not imposible but I certainly have to raise my voice.

I haven't had a real handbag session for ages (years) but if it does happen I will stop in any way I can. In the past I have been physical in such situations now I am probably tighter and jump more on smaller things----maybe that makes for a more secure group.

I think this thread is important and relevant but I also think that for a huge majority of dogs and situations the kissy kissy works and does less damage than a badly timed and harsh correction would.

rune
Again, though, I think you are talking about emergency situations for the most part. The situation that has already escalated to a point where an unprepared (as in not trained sufficiently) dog is reacting in a way that is dangerous.

For training itself, I really can't see the need for physical corrections/manipulation.

When young, my dog was playing retrieve with his ball. I'd thrown the ball, he'd gone out for it, turned and was on his way back. A track bike shot out of bushes to the side of us. I shouted a very loud 'down' and gave a very exaggerated hand signal and he dropped like a stone.

The tone/volume of the command conveyed the fact that it was an emergency as it is reserved specifically for such situations (in fact, I think this was the first time he'd heard it and has heard it very rarely since).

The point is, this is very different to how he was trained to 'down' - in fact at that point he had had only basic training which hadn't included distance commands. The fact that the tone of the given command had changed as well as my body language quite possibly shocked him into immediate compliance even though he was mid-way through an exciting exercise.

Emergency situations are exactly that - emergencies. We do whatever is needed to put an end to that emergency. Training is training and there is no need to teach using physically aversive methods/shouting/pushing/pulling etc.
Reply With Quote
waggytail
Dogsey Junior
waggytail is offline  
Location: UK
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 199
Female 
 
28-07-2011, 08:03 AM
Ok, So now i'm trying the "multiquote" thing!!

Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
WT, am I missing something here In order to yank/push/poke your dog to get its attention you need to be standing fairly close to it.
So tell me then how do you get your dog's attention when you are not standing close to it and why don't you use this method to get the dogs attention all the time
How I get my dogs attention at a distance really depends on the situation, as I said, to me its simply about communication, if the dog is next to me I can address them verbally, physically or both (can I express again that I do not Yank, push etc) At a distance you would rely on your voice more however a dog should firstly be trained at close range until the exercise or behaviour is more reliable.


Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
WT as you suggest in your post yanking, pushing, poking are forms of physical correction and for me as such they should play no part in the training of dogs.
....that is because many here see it as negative, what would you call it , positive? ...

What I mean is that Some people would use "yanking, pushing, poking" and call this "physical correction" I call it abuse. My understanding of "physical correction" is that it can refer to any method where a dog is physically handled or moved, this does not have to be forceful or negative.
Let me give an example:
In a "stand-Stay" a dog may fall back into a sit. I would tickle a dog under the belly to encourage them back into the "stand" position. I may use my hand or even my toes. I have "physically corrected" the dog. however this does not mean that I hit them or kicked them.



Please see my posts below..

...I would appreciate a reply please.
really,
It seems to me from your previous posts that you are suggesting 'yanking, pushing, poking etc' are acceptable methods of dog training and to me they are unnecessary harsh forms of handling .

I apologise for any misunderstanding, this post was not worded well. I do not think These forms of correction are acceptable

Waggytail you introduced various examples in your posts in a thread which you started, therefore I think members are entitled to question you about your examples.
Reply With Quote
waggytail
Dogsey Junior
waggytail is offline  
Location: UK
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 199
Female 
 
28-07-2011, 08:11 AM
Sorry Minihaha, I missed your other question...

[QUOTE=Minihaha;2315133]WT, So if the tap is out of sight of the dog and possibly the vegetable patch too, how do you know when the dog is in the vegetable patch if you can't see it Do you see it in there and tell it to sit and wait then run to the tap?

This scenerio would be deliberately set up: The owner would be out of sight, watching the dog at a distance, when the dog goes on the veggie plot the owner would control the sprayer. (Set up and timing obviously critical.)
Reply With Quote
waggytail
Dogsey Junior
waggytail is offline  
Location: UK
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 199
Female 
 
28-07-2011, 08:18 AM
Quote from Brierley:
For training itself, I really can't see the need for physical corrections/manipulation.


I would agree on this, when doing basic training I use "shaping" (dog following a treat or toy to achieve positions such as "sit", "Down" etc) However once a dog has learned this I see no problem in using my hands to guide or reposition them if they need a gentle reminder.
Reply With Quote
Ben Mcfuzzylugs
Dogsey Veteran
Ben Mcfuzzylugs is offline  
Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
Female 
 
28-07-2011, 08:35 AM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
I am going to stick my neck out here---I know EXACTLY what the OP means about the purely positive thing.

There are times when a kissy kissy noise simply doesn't hack it----times when a dog/pup is going to 'snipe' at other dogs especially. It really gets me cross when the pup is not corrected for the behaviour and the owner ends up with a dog whose area of supposed control gets bigger and bigger and they then have a problem. Personal space is one thing but a 50 yd exclusion area is quite another!

I have lots of dogs in and out and if unacceptable behaviour happens they are told it is unacceptable. TBF it is rare. I have had the odd dog stand by me and repel the rest----that is not on. Nor is big serious arguing over things on the floor. Nor is beating other dogs up.

Benj is bullying Pippin a bit----difficult to stop but not imposible but I certainly have to raise my voice.

I haven't had a real handbag session for ages (years) but if it does happen I will stop in any way I can. In the past I have been physical in such situations now I am probably tighter and jump more on smaller things----maybe that makes for a more secure group.

I think this thread is important and relevant but I also think that for a huge majority of dogs and situations the kissy kissy works and does less damage than a badly timed and harsh correction would.

rune
If it is taught so it is an automatic reflex then it does, it actually breaks tru a full on freak out reaction and causes the dog to whip round to you before they have thought about it

But yup when a serious handbag sesh happens between two dogs or an emergency happens that you havent trained for then you have to deal with that situation
It isnt training tho - you deal with the situation - and then you train for it afterwords

It is a great bug bear for me to see people whos dogs gave all the calming signs and warning signals they could to another dog, then finally the dog tells the other dog off more physically, this then starts a fight so the owner drags their dog off and begins telling them off for starting a fight

That is a big problem I have with punishment is us humans get angry too easily and punish without thinking if it is fair, well timed, and to the right level
Reply With Quote
Ben Mcfuzzylugs
Dogsey Veteran
Ben Mcfuzzylugs is offline  
Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
Female 
 
28-07-2011, 09:06 AM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
Quote from Brierley:
For training itself, I really can't see the need for physical corrections/manipulation.


I would agree on this, when doing basic training I use "shaping" (dog following a treat or toy to achieve positions such as "sit", "Down" etc) However once a dog has learned this I see no problem in using my hands to guide or reposition them if they need a gentle reminder.
I have had a couple of trainers try and use their hands to put my dogs in a sit or a down - my dogs just look confused because I have never done that - and they dont go into a sit or a down because they dont know what is being asked

If they need a gentle reminder I use my hand signal, if they need more then I go back to luring, then hand signal then cue alone guess its just cos I have never taught hands on so it dosent actually make any sense to me to use it at any point - wasnt a deliberate choice or anything I never knew about hands on training
Reply With Quote
Lotsadogs
Dogsey Senior
Lotsadogs is offline  
Location: UK
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 709
Female 
 
28-07-2011, 09:10 AM
Originally Posted by sarah1983 View Post

The majority of the dogs I know are stuck in the house and garden pretty much 24/7 though. I wonder whether that has anything to do with the issue?
Maybe that is it - I don't know. I asked at work last night and there are some dogs who bin raid which I had never known about, but the majority don't. Then I asked why they had not raised this as an issue, they said that they had resolved it themselves as the solution was so obvious.

The answers on the bin raiding thread are helpfull as a numbers thing, but possibly not reflective of the dog owning population in general.

I am genuinely fascinated that so many people have this problem and will henceforth include it in my public talks on avoiding problems - Thank you all for bringing it to my attention.
Reply With Quote
Reply
Page 10 of 21 « First < 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 20 > Last »


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 2 (0 members and 2 guests)
 


© Copyright 2016, Dogsey   Contact Us - Dogsey - Top Contact us | Archive | Privacy | Terms of use | Top