Prob I would do exactly what you are doing - a lead around sheep
cut (and sorry for repeating myself for those of you have alread read this) if the drive is that high then punishments wont work
I dont know Mias history but when I frist got her I let her off the lead in an enclosed graveyard in the middle of nowhere
She scaled 2 drystone walls and squeezed under several electric fences - getting shocked each time - to get to a field of about 100 sheep, she then proceeded to drive them all into a tiny corner of the field before attempting to return to me - but stopping just before the first electric fence and refusing to come further
electric cattle fences DO hurt
she was shocked and totaly aware of being shocked but continued on because getting to the sheep was more important to her

Now I would be irrisponsable to have her offlead in a field of sheep - but the other day I was walking her and came round a corner to see the farmer had moved his sheep into the next field - with only 1 small fence between them - she didnt even look at them

and I know exactly what you mean and agree about how shepards dogs are not toaly in control
But with a collie I would say you have an OCD behaviour there - which they are prone to and difficult to break - but the usual practice is to stop them reinforcing the behaviour (as you are doing by keeping her onlead and away from sheep) and teach an alternative focus somewhere else to become the OCD thing - something you can live with like a ball
Over time this will become the BEST thing in the whole world, hardwired as better than sheep - because the sheep chace bit isnt getting reinforced

Nope I dont have a quick fix and there would be no point me coming over to you, much as I would love to I know i am not a dog trainer

Do forgive me, but when I read the above, I instantly had a comedy-sketch type scenario in my mind - of a stuffed (taxiderm'd or toy) dog strapped up all over with e-collars....
& someone pushing the remote so many times to try to get the dog to move without success that it explodes!

(very Monty Python...lol).

Ah, I see. Thank you for the clarification

That is true, as is the fact that what would get a dog marked down in a trial, i.e "gripping" the sheep, can , to a certain degree, be considered a desirable trait in a working sheepdog, e.g when faced with a confrontational, recalcitrant sheep.

Many working shepherds are not advocates of positive-only training for their dogs and some will use various forms and degrees of positive punishment to keep their dogs under control, or they will not keep a dog that doesn't work in an acceptable manner.

The reward to most sheepdogs is the intrinsic pleasure of work itself.

Stopping them, or ensuring they keep off the sheep, can be a very big ask for some dogs and of course, while they are working (however inappropriately), that reward sensation is being constantly reinforced

This is the stim level/reaction dogs give throughtout training!

http://s262.photobucket.com/albums/ii119/ecollardog/

Adam

By OCD I guess you mean "Ordinary Collie Disorder?" Any working dog has to have some disorde to work in my view, ., - why else would they regularly work hundreds of sheep, twice, their size and each capable of killing a dog? if only they had the sense or desire (as they sometimes do).

Or do you mean OCD Obsessive compulsive Disorder. See above.

There is nothing (that I have found) in this world that will ever be more important to her than sheep. This is a very smart dog. She is not going to be lulled by the false hope of a ball which is only in motion for a few seconds. She cant play tug as a weakness in her neck means she fears dislocation. She is highly food motivated, but not if movement of a live animal distracts her.

There is no move to an alternative drive stimulant - this is a dog that has been bred for hundreds of years to do one thing and then she has sadly been inbred some more, for her coat and shape, with little head being tacken to her desire to please, her pack interest, or indeed her physical wellbeing. She is single minded and fixated. This dog wants to work sheep and that is that is that. Everything else comes second.

You were shocking that dog for demonstration? Poor little thing - you're nothing but a lousy bully!

Seen that video before and not impressed Adam.

It's an old video of the tramp in a pub with an e collar on an 8 month old puppy ! Heaven only knows why anyone would think it appropriate to use an e collar on a lovely puppy, there are some sick people around.

What level do you use when you put two e collars on a dog at once !

What sort of sick low life would get a kick out of putting videos on line of dogs and puppies being abused?

You need locking up.

Its very difficult to keep an enthusiastic dog "off" the sheep, with positive training methods. You gotta be faster than the dog for a start!

Personally I spend a lot of time praising my dogs for getting their work as I want it, but I have yet to find a competition sheepdog trainer who agrees with this approach.

Yes the reward for a working dog (that wants to work - and they don't all!), is the work itself. There is no food or balls or clickers required in sheepdog training with an enthusiastic dog.