..ok what i am saying is....no you do not have to induce pain and can indeed train by sensation.but to do this you would use a vibrating collar.
e collars induce pain!! if not then whats the need when a vibrating collar would do the trick?

am i really that hard to understand

Oh, i see.

Just reading tru it all
I know exactly what you mean - the thing is when your dog is 'ignoring' you and totaly focused on something else then most of their senses and brain power are diverted to the thing they are focused on
So it can take more than a gentle touch to snap them out of it (ever had to wave your hands infornt of someones face cos they were miles away?)
So the shock has to be large enough to break that focus
I work more on teaching my dogs to check in with me often

and I do that really simply, on a walk every time they look in my driection I chuck a treat or play a game or something

- with Mia to start with I had to just chuck a treat if her zoomies took her within chucking distance of me - it took some weeks for her to even notice my existance when she was off the lead lol
slowly over time it became a habit to check in with me - and when checking in I can recal
She is a high focus dog so I doubt I would ever be able to call her back when she is stalking a rabbit - but she does now check back before she stalks - so I can call her back or send her on

Yup zapping might have been quicker - but she was a little dog who lived on her nerves always looking for where the next attack was coming from - and charging head on to meet any potential threat head on
Now she confidently romps and runs and bounces without having to scan the horizon constantly - I cant see how shocking her would have helped

yip ben- mc- fuz

...i do the hiding thing quite often

Agree, this is one reason I would not consider using them.

Wys
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Ive used TENS countless times .... including shocking my mates while training... very funny!
Do most people agree with a vibrating collar then?

Mini gave a very good bit of info re. the David Ryan article on shock collars, and that is one argument as good as you will get anywhere.

Ryan lives in Cumbria and works with dogs who chase. Successfully He has worked with dogs with a strong predatory chase drive including (wait for it) a Malamute. (I recall it as a Malamute, or it have been a sibe, but I recall it being the former). Dogs who are so driven that they try to break out of the houses to go and chase something.

He does not use shock collars, and neither does Angela Stockdale, who uses different methods to Ryan but still does not approve of them.

I don't see there is any reason for using them - certainly not for everyday training nor advanced training.
Behaviour problems? No, not for those either.

At the end of the day, you can use the collar on very low levels but why would one want to? Dogs can also be either sensitised or desensitised to a shock collar.

Me and my car door - yowee it hurts, and it hurts more each time until I will do anything to avoid it -yet it's not a very high level of "shock".

You can drip water - drip, drip, drip - in itself it's not harmful or painful, but keep doing it and it's torture, literally!

If you have an older dog who does not pay attention, do you feel you have enough knowledge to train him so that he does? IF for example it's when sniffing a hedge, that is one thing, and if it's when sighting another dog, that may be due to entirely different reasons

If the problem is due to the dog being a bit kind of, strong minded, then you can go over to the dog and "insist" he comes to you or whatever, but you do have to check your own traing methods, ensure you are totally consistent etc. Unlike somene I know who called her dog, then put he rhead down - the dog looked at her, ready to recall, but saw her head was down and did not go back. Dog got told off even though it was his owner's fault. We always have to check ourselves

To be honest, unless Rocky is being a danger I'd see it as part of his character and not be frustrated by it, it depends on situation etc.

Wys
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PS excuse spelling, my hands are very cold!!

I don't think that that is what this thread is about though is it? Maybe I got it wrong? Its not asking should we teach our dogs to sit using an ecollar. Its about is there any justification EVER to use one. Tell me if I read it all wrong?

Wys can you tell of the methods that both of these trainers use for resolving chasing problems?I would be very interested to hear and don't know either of them well enough to contact personally. Cheers, Dx

Just to add, the reason this can be such a difficult discussion (unpleasant personalities aside) is that in some ways it all ends up being about personal ethics and then almost philosophy.

There are also some things worse than death. Some of the US gundog videos I've seen, the dogs seem to be living under constant fear of having to "beat the stim" ... all because some person wants to win a ribbon.

Similarly if a very fearful dog was "controlled" by shock, it might be better for that tormented soul to be put to sleep with compassion rather than forced to live with whatever constantly scared it.

Wys
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