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Location: UK
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 709
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02-10-2010, 06:41 AM
Originally Posted by Crysania 
I'm not sure you NEED my post (though it's fairly early on in this discussion, may be one of the first responses if I remember right). I'm just trying to understand what you meant by yours because I couldn't figure out what you think is rewarding negative behavior, etc.
Edited to add because I missed your response in the middle of my post (I often do when people do that). My post was in response to the original discussion about the dog licking and inappropriately greeting other dogs. I don't think the dog's actions are entirely fear-based.
That being said, allowing a dog to come over when a dog is fearful, especially if the dog is intensely fearful is called "flooding" and is likely to make the dog even more afraid. If I were working with a fearful dog, I would be slowly bringing the other dog over. Not allowing them to greet right away but instead rewarding the dog for remaining calm when the dog is X distance away. Then bringing the other dog into its uncomfortable zone just slightly and rewarding for staying calm and relaxed.
Fear is a tricky thing. Too much flooding of a dog with something and the dog is going to shut down and they can't do anything without shutting down. And if they DON'T shut down out of fear, they do the opposite. They attack. Neither is a good situation. With fear I work just slightly within that uncomfortable zone, slowly getting the dog more and more comfortable with other dogs coming into that zone. And I work on shrinking the zone.
I've worked with my dog's fears (not other dogs, but of loud noises and other things that she's afraid of) slowly to acclimate her to them and to show her they aren't something to be afraid of. If I dragged her to her fear and flooded her with it, she'd be scared out of her wits and shut down.
I expect in the near future to teach her that innapropriate responses get HER taken away from the other dog, not the other way around. Whether this will help or not is unknown.
Its turnng into a fascinating thread, shame Im off for the weekend so cant follow it
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Location: Essex, UK
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 14,147
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02-10-2010, 08:14 AM
Actually the dog must have been afraid at some point to have reacted with aggression. Then she found a solution to her anxiety. Yey! I shout at the scary thing and the scary thing goes away!
This has now progressed into a learned behaviour which gives the dog confidence. If confronted by a possible threat, the dog knows how to deal with it. So of course she gives the appearance of a confident dog.
I prefer to look at what is actually happening:The dog needs to learn a different way of behaving. You do that by teaching the dog what you want it to do - in this case to remain calm. So you reward the dog for being calm. Not rocket science, is it?
Confronting a dog`s fears reinforces the fear and pepetuates it. It`s inefficient and pointless.
Walk the dog at a distance past other dogs and reward if calm. If the dog reacts move away - you`re too close. Teach the dog to defer to the handler (use the watch me focus and sit behind, and loads of positive training).
You cannot `prove` to a frightened dog that there is nothing to fear. You have to train a viable alternative behaviour.
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Location: Fife Scotland
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,946
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02-10-2010, 08:57 AM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn
I genuinely wanted to know how people perceived an "omega" dog. I personally do not agree with the alpha/omega thingy in a home environment to any large degree. I do though feel that dogs are very different to eachother, but they dont IMO have a specific "role." My dogs are all very different, they all get on very well, but they all have times when they get what they want, submit to others etc... without any consequence.
My two get on very well most of the time except when Zymi gets worked up and redirects onto Cava who objects and they both kick off.
Cava never starts anything but this morning was lying on an armchair that Zymi usually lies on. Zymi put his front paws up on the chair obviously wanting up Cava had his head on the arm, opened his eyes, raised his head then laid it down and shut his eyes. Zymi got down and wandered off.
To me that says that in that case Cava was not going to be dispossessed but another time it might differ.
Made me think a bit I think Zymi isn't as confident as he appears he loves his ball but is willing to share with other dogs.
When they are fed Zymi is always finished first but sits beside his empty dish until Cava finishes when they swap over and lick each others dishes.
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Location: East Midlands, UK
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 8,775
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02-10-2010, 11:57 AM
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs
Yes indeed. Rather frantically and persistrntly. Il have to video it.
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Location: UK
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,723
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02-10-2010, 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
OK, that's good. Gucci does it the whole time with Tai in particular, he actually licks with his tongue between Tai's teeth, like one of those cleaner fish cleaning a shark's teeth! I interpret this as not being a request for Tai to regurgitate his last meal, but a total sign from Gucci of respect and trust for and of Tai. Look at me, little omega, paying you the greatest compliment by literally putting my head into the wolf's mouth! So it could be that, or it could be she is quite simply asking to be fed. I've forgotten how old you said she was?
Mia does that licking right between Bens teeth
If she is lying in a doorway Ben wont pass (she isnt even looking at him) he is very careful to give her her space when he lies on the sofa with her, if there isnt room he will sit on the floor
If she wants on the sofa she will lie right onto of him no problem, if he accidently touches her when he goes on the sofa she grumbles and leaves the sofa
When playing she sometimes humps him, when she wants to play she will stand over him trying to hold her groin over his face - so if he moves his head she moves round
Before I trained her otherwise she would take all food and toys away from him - with force if needed (not often needed cos he would give them to her)
So she submissive wees, muzzle and teeth licks, crawls on her belly, but also cocks her leg, humps, resource and space guards and sleeps where she wants even if Ben is already there
Before I got Mia I believed the rest of you that there was this kind of pack hirearcy - you could spend all their lifetimes trying to figure out who is the boss with my two - but in reality I dont think either is, I dont think any one thing is an indicator of a totaly submissive dog - just some dogs are more likely to submit in most situations, to me that dosent mean they think they are bottom of the pile - just that they dont like conflict and try and avoid it
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Location: london, UK
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 583
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03-10-2010, 09:28 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher
As I have said before, for a scientist of Mech's eminence to have got it SO wrong - and thus do such a massive volte face - is not credible. I will ignore your snipe about Shaun Ellis. I have been to many far flung and exotic places, but I would be dang well hard-pushed to prove it!! Can YOU prove everything that you have ever done? Why should you want to? Or need to? That's a cheap remark IMO, and unworthy of you, who I have a lot of respect for.
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Location: cornwall uk
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,132
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03-10-2010, 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by wolfdogowner
Ok so its a cheap shot but the point is the Mech as a scientist has published consistently for 40 years. If you read 'The Wolf' (1970) the theory of linear hierarchy is attributed to Scenkel's studies and published work in 1947- 1967 which appears to be where this rigid notion originates: based entirely on studies of wolves in zoo environments, which are about as stressed an un-natural as you can create. It is hardly surprising that Mech has gradually moved away from these concepts as he worked in more natural environments.
The foxes at a wildlife park here formed a cohesive group with a heirachy although naturally they would never have lived that way.
rune
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Location: UK
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,551
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03-10-2010, 10:54 PM
Originally Posted by wolfdogowner
Ok so its a cheap shot but the point is the Mech as a scientist has published consistently for 40 years. If you read 'The Wolf' (1970) the theory of linear hierarchy is attributed to Scenkel's studies and published work in 1947- 1967 which appears to be where this rigid notion originates: based entirely on studies of wolves in zoo environments, which are about as stressed an un-natural as you can create. It is hardly surprising that Mech has gradually moved away from these concepts as he worked in more natural environments.
In the fairly recent paper by ... was it Bradshaw and Casey ... they discuss briefly whether captive or wild wolves have more influence on dog social structure living with humans and the conclusion was that there was no evidence that dog social structure was more like captive wolf structure (hierarchy). There was more but I have forgotten it..
Wys
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Location: UK
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03-10-2010, 10:59 PM
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php
To go back to the original question re Omega dogs, I would tend to look for reasons other than the idea of "omega" myself. I'd be surprised for instance if a young pupster was taking on what would be more adult characteristics (ie socially sorting the group) .... seems odd to me. JMO though.
Wys
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Location: UK
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04-10-2010, 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy
I really mistrust bald statements like `the dog is not afraid`.
Actually the dog must have been afraid at some point to have reacted with aggression. Then she found a solution to her anxiety. Yey! I shout at the scary thing and the scary thing goes away!
This has now progressed into a learned behaviour which gives the dog confidence. If confronted by a possible threat, the dog knows how to deal with it. So of course she gives the appearance of a confident dog.
I
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Are you replying to a different thread? Which dog are you talking abut as being aggressive ??? - maybe you are replying to another poster - not the original thread?
The staff is not afraid. She is mixing with puppiees that she has known since a very early age and has never been afraid of them. She has the opportunity to away if anything worries her, but doesn't take it. She SEEKS out other dogs.
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