So if e-collars get banned in the rest of the UK will Adam find another job? Let's just hope that it's not working with animals! A prison warder perhaps?.

I think there`s a bit of misunderstanding here. A troll is someone who causes trouble on forums. I would say that advocating cruelty to dogs on a dog lovers forum is acting like a troll.
I don`t think Adam is a trainer because the training advice he gives is frankly unworkable and doesn`t give an indication of any experience training dogs.
It may be that he`s bought himself an electric shock collar and is touting it round for money. That doesn`t make him a trainer, or any less of a troll. JMO.
I do note that since I queried why he never mentions his dogs he has posted about something other than electric shock collars, which is a pleasant change. It was getting to be a bit monotonous.

a troll is someone whom posits a controversial argument which they dont believe in just for the sake of reeling people in and then getting a rise out of them.

a troll is not someone whom posts a genuinely held opinion which is controversial for, or out of the bounds of, the contemparies in which it was made......
basically, a devils advocate just for the heck of it.

AP falls into the latter, not the former, and dogsey does not not have an anti e collar post rule, so that would not make him a troll on here either.

he is also too polite and measured in his posting style to be a troll.

and there is nothing in his posting style that indicates lack of education.

your wider viewpoint would make him a not very good trainer and/or exagerator, but as merlin's mum said, def not a troll, as he buys his own PR.

Electric shock: I have no experience of electric collars, though following surgery, I have used an electric device to stimulate the muscles. The effect varied from a mild, gentle massage type sensation to what could be quite uncomfortable. This wasn't a comercial device, but in a pretty well equipped physio dept of a hospital (American). I don't know what others experience e-collar is, but as yet I wouldn't rule them out based on the use of some emotive language on this forum.

Having said that, I'd want to see one in use first, I 'd want to get to know the trainer using it, and I'd be more than willing to put it around my arm/leg/neck to come to my own conclusion.

Re medical conditions: have a look at para 2 & 3 of post 483. Given that I now know that he has a problem with his shoulders and that I have managed to aggravate this on one occaision whilst using a long line/harness (though I am more careful now), do you not think that there might be a possibilty that it might be the lesser of two evils to use an e-collar instead of a long line?

Desired effect: my aim is to give Locky the best quality of life that I can for as long as he's with us. I would like to be able to walk with him off lead, allowing him to roam around having a good sniff, safe in the knowledge that he'll come back when I call him so as not to give cause for concern to anyone (see earlier re police & dog warden).


That's pretty much what the trainer said regarding the on-lead incidents we had.


A logical minded person might think "that dog is wearing a muzzle and so can not hurt me". From previous experience, a large muzzled dog seems to scare the hell out of most people!

A lot of trainers use the tens machine as a descrpition of what e collars feel like, I've never used one myself so can't tell. However I have several clients who have used a tens machine and say the feel of the collar is the same as the machine and in some cases the intensity is less.

I'm cautuose of using muzzles long term as if a fight did happen the muzzled dog has no means of defence. Also people are scared of a muzzled dog and occasionally other dog owners will see it as a reason to set their dog on a muzzled dog.

I will generally only use a muzzle for the first intro off lead to my dogs and only then if the dog has poor bite inhibtion and a history of fights that reuslted in injuries.

Adam

Googling around the net, I just stumbled across this:

If your dog doesn't want to be with you, has no interest in toys, a game, delicious treats, his dinner or your scintillating company despite the fact that you are in a quiet place with very few distractions then you need to build a better bond with your dog and try to find out what will motivate him.

which is something I've heard on more than one occaision, said to me and others, but isn't really of much help.

I'll give the Jane Killion book a try, if you've got a copy you want rid of I'll donate the price + post to a dog rescue to take it off your hands.

Thanks for the suggestions.

I'd say that is a general comment , re dogs generally not wanting to be with their owners, and is directed at owners who've not really put in the work or who don't understand they need some commitment to training their dog. Although the relationship is clearly very important (in fact, key) there are other motivating factors to be taken into account.

For Lockey, it appears his motivation may be fear, built upon the learning experience that he can make other dogs go away if he is aggressive. If this is the case, then really you may need a good desentitisation programme and one that also encourages him to associate the very presence of other dogs with something really special, that helps to balance his homeostasis (basically, feeling OK/good/normal) which is usually extra special food (but must be whatever most floats the dog's boat - see Dunbar for example).

Dog socialisation walks can help (or sometimes hinder) but sometimes what the dog learns, is to get on with the dogs he knows. It may not always help in altering the conditioned emotional reaction to strange dogs.

I do think though that you've done amazingly well with him, I really do. I think you may be being too hard on yourself?
Teaching a good Leave it may be another option. If you do this using reward methods, it helps to teach the reflex action. I've used it to call my high chase drive BSD off running deer. Granted she was not fearful, but she was full of adrenalin and excitement. For her previous fear aggression, I've used what I've mentioned above, gradually desensitising to other dogs again. However she was young at the time and had only been attacked 3 times.What can happen is that you can run into problems controlling other dogs (but there are ways to do this, ie teaching your own dog to hide behind, whilst you deal with the strange dog, etc). But it's a common way of helping fearful dogs. It can take time, you can have setbacks, but then you can have those with any method.
Down here we have a very good grumpy dogs class run by a behaviourist/trainer, but these are few and far between, and you have to be so careful as some set up situatoins will make the dog worse.

I always keep all my books, hardly ever get rid of any but you may be able to find a second hand copy out there.
I'd try to look at it via Amazon.com or Dogwise, see if you can get a "look inside" before you buy.

Wys
x

I think to be fair, you'd have to try it around your neck and also (I know this sounds funny but...! ) allow yourself to experience the training as your dog would.

I.e. you cannot replicate his emotions when he is near other dogs, but you can ask the trainer to literally let you experience how he trains: does he guide, does he use continual stim (shock), or one higher level shock, and also get him to train at least one command without you guessing/knowing beforehand what he is trying to teach you (and nothing too easy either, like sit! harder, as you have the brain of a human ). Then maybe imagine how it would be to experience that, and also be in a heightened emotional (fearful) state.

Wys
x

This can be the case. I think it "depends" on the person.

I personally would worry a lot if I saw a dog with a shock collar on approach or be near to my dog, in fact I've had to retrace my steps on one occasion when i was not sure of dog or owner. On other occasions I've met dogs being shocked for chasing squirrels or deer, but that was different as the dog was focussed on something else. On that occasion I was not concerned for my dog (Owner was not unfortunately giving the dog any other toy to redirect, so the poor dog ended up with no joy even though hard wired tochase, but that's another story).

Wys
x

That protocol has nothing to with determining a dog's electric shock tolerance level as regards Lou Castle's logic for having thirty settings when only the first couple are usually necessary...his logic being some dogs have a high threshold due to innate high arousal/andrenaline levels.

That is just a technical protocol for determining the working level of the electric shock according to a behaviour response as per the training goal, not a protocol for a pain threshold based upon arousal/adrenaline/emotional/stress factors.

This means what you are suggesting is that you will advise someone to buy an electric collar they have no experience of, a collar with up to thirty settings of ever increasing electric shock power, when only the first few settings are supposed to be necessary for most situations, then for them to PM you (why arent you, at the least, going to arrange a full extensive around the clock distance learning support system at your own initiative btw??...skype, videos, etc??), so you can advise them what power to stim dog, without having seen the dog in the face and flesh yourself, and without having determined the emotional-arousal dynamic of the whole situation, outside of merely basing it all on some generalised basic text book body language guides?


(BTW....what is your body language guide for this purpose?)

ummmmm..........