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wolfdogowner
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18-09-2009, 09:41 AM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
I think it will depend on your definition of hierarchy...

You will see two types of structure in the playground and prison, the structured ranking system that society and laws set down... the teacher /pupil, the headmaster /teacher.

The prison warden /inmate, the head warden /warden!!

These structures (hierarchies) are in all walks of life, its how civilized communities work...

Then there is the hierarchy of the bully and fear based structure.. in both school play ground and prisons, setting the biggest bully at the top of the tree, instilling fear and obedience in all who dare step out of line.

So basically, you wil see both in the playground and prisons, the structure and ethos of the state systems, and the school bullies, who get their by using force and fear to gain their pack leadership!!




I also make my dogs wait before they are fed, they wait at doors/ wait to be released from the car..

I dont see it as me having power over them, nor do they see me as having power over them.

They are taught manners, just like my children were.

I dont want bolshy dogs, that push you out of the way, nor do I want dogs running out of doorways..but it is done for one reason only, theirs and mine safety.

Not because I need to make myself pack leader .

So in a way , we have a hierarchy system going on here..but one that is based on love/leadership and understanding...

i dont look to the wild wolf pack for guidance to understand how my dogs think, they are not wolves, they are domesticated dogs,.. and as such they are treated like dogs.. they live , fit into my home, they also need to fit into society , just like we do, we need rules, structure, and manners...

Simple basic discipline , without having to buy into the belief that if a dog challenges you you need to assert pack leader and think like a wolf!!!!!!!
An interesting post. We agree that our own society relies on a hierarchical structure. Weak leadership/dictatorship often end in a struggle for a balance of power this much we can observe in any civil war at any time in history.

By teaching your dog to have manners (for whatever reason you think) is acting like a parent or leader.

So what do you do if a dog challenges you? Raise your voice and assert your authority? Or sit down and reason with it?

This raises the old question of how does a wolf think, which is distinctly different from the rather stilted 'pack rules' that so called dog behaviorists have been teaching.

It strikes me that if humans were all about love and compassion then we would see no more wars and murders and all the other things that we will agree are bad. Perhaps we are just projecting our own lack of balance on the wolf or perhaps the wolf is similar to us?

In this endless debate only one thing seems clear for both sides of the argument; we feel the need to exert our authority over our dogs. Are they our children or our slaves?
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wolfdogowner
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18-09-2009, 09:50 AM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
But studying wolves willd or captive gives us no better insight into dogs behaviour than would studying a remote tribe who had never had contact with the outside world and then translating that to someone in New York
Not sure its that simple. The remote tribe will probably have much the same social structure and similar behavior to other humans from other places, though we might blind our selves with our own superiority and not see the evidence. Scientific studies were conducted on many remote tribes in the 19th century on the basis of finding proof that they did not have the same mental capacity as civilized man. These studies failed in their objective.

You are probably right to say it is more relevant to study dogs in a human environment but the thing that most likely determines a lot of the dogs thinking will be of a genetic origin.
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Jackie
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18-09-2009, 10:13 AM
Originally Posted by wolfdogowner View Post
An interesting post. We agree that our own society relies on a hierarchical structure. Weak leadership/dictatorship often end in a struggle for a balance of power this much we can observe in any civil war at any time in history.

By teaching your dog to have manners (for whatever reason you think) is acting like a parent or leader.

So what do you do if a dog challenges you? Raise your voice and assert your authority? Or sit down and reason with it?

If my dog was to challenge me, I would sit down and LOOK for the reason, he did so, then I would either seek advice or look to a solution to solve said problem myself.


This raises the old question of how does a wolf think, which is distinctly different from the rather stilted 'pack rules' that so called dog behaviorists have been teaching.


Why does it raise the question as to how a wolf pack thinks, I am dealing with dogs not wolves!!


It strikes me that if humans were all about love and compassion then we would see no more wars and murders and all the other things that we will agree are bad. Perhaps we are just projecting our own lack of balance on the wolf or perhaps the wolf is similar to us?

Who said we (the human race) are all about compassion

Not sure why you think we are projecting our lack of balance on wolves mind I am running late so, forgive for skimming over your post!!

In this endless debate only one thing seems clear for both sides of the argument; we feel the need to exert our authority over our dogs. Are they our children or our slaves?

Neither... they are are friends/ our pets/ we may love them as we love other members of our family, be them human or animal!!

And as with children , you have them, you have a duty to turn them into decent members of society.

If thats exerting our authority over them, so be it !!

But you can do it without looking to other species or exerting the whip
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Mahooli
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18-09-2009, 10:53 AM
Originally Posted by wolfdogowner View Post
It seems that people are either black or white on this issue. No one is denying that there is a strong social structure amongst wolves (are they?) but there does seem to be denial that dogs also have any form of social structure...
Indeed there is a strong social structur in wolves but it does not revolve around one inividual! However, as someone who has lived in a multidog household for about 14 years I can truely say that my dogs do not seem to have any structure at all. Just a group of dogs together, sometimes getting on, sometimes not, all will guard the things that THEY place a value on but they are all happy to sit on my lap, no-one complains if it isn't them and no-one will try to 'take over' a spot on my lap or on a bed or chair. I cannot, no matter how hard I try, see any structure at all. They all have their likes and dislikes although I have to say that EVERYONE likes my Terra!

Originally Posted by wolfdogowner View Post
Not sure its that simple. The remote tribe will probably have much the same social structure and similar behavior to other humans from other places, though we might blind our selves with our own superiority and not see the evidence. Scientific studies were conducted on many remote tribes in the 19th century on the basis of finding proof that they did not have the same mental capacity as civilized man. These studies failed in their objective.
Incorrect, if you watched the Tribe programmes on the box it was clear that each of these tribes had their own social structure depending on their environment. One tribe had such as easy go life that the men of the tribe spent huge amounts of time with their children, something that is denied an awful lot of children in both first and third world countries. That is why we have spread to all parts of this planet beacuse we have the bility to adapt and change out behaviour to better suit the environment we live in.
Becky
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rich c
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18-09-2009, 10:53 AM
Here's a book that uses the dreaded leader and pack words but appears to be about how I see the 'alpha' role. I might have to buy a copy!

To me, when dealing with my relationship with Jake it's useful to think of our family as a pack. He is part of our family and we are his pack, to look at it from both points of view. I even think he sees my father-in-law as another alpha when we are visiting there, by observing his behaviour. I'm therefore absolutely convinced that Jake (Instinctively?) places people he is around a lot in a pyramid shaped hierarchy. I know some believe he should but I don't think he sees himself as being at the bottom of the pyramid. However, he is a shining example (Now he's older!) of the B.S. that is dominance theory that insists any challenger should get swift and severe discipline. I think when he was younger and possibly less secure in his perceived position, he did tend to try to use intimidating techniques and will fall back to that when challenged by a same gender/size/age dog.

Anyway, I could ramble on but I'd better go do my duty as leader and take the lad and myself out on an expedition/walk.
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wolfdogowner
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18-09-2009, 11:01 AM
Response to Jackbox:

The point is that in the instant, when a dog challenges you you are most likely to make some attempt to control it. You can think about the cause later. Looking for advise or seeking a solution can apply to those that follow the pack rules or those that are opponents.

The only reason for bringing up the way a wolf thinks is because you said: "Simple basic discipline , without having to buy into the belief that if a dog challenges you you need to assert pack leader and think like a wolf!!!!!!!". The outdated theory that is being discussed does not necessarily represent how a wolf really thinks or acts; therefore those that live by the 'Pack leader approach' may not be accurately mimicking the actions of a wolf pack anyway.
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wolfdogowner
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18-09-2009, 11:13 AM
Originally Posted by Mahooli View Post
Indeed there is a strong social structur in wolves but it does not revolve around one inividual! However, as someone who has lived in a multidog household for about 14 years I can truely say that my dogs do not seem to have any structure at all. Just a group of dogs together, sometimes getting on, sometimes not, all will guard the things that THEY place a value on but they are all happy to sit on my lap, no-one complains if it isn't them and no-one will try to 'take over' a spot on my lap or on a bed or chair. I cannot, no matter how hard I try, see any structure at all. They all have their likes and dislikes although I have to say that EVERYONE likes my Terra!



Incorrect, if you watched the Tribe programmes on the box it was clear that each of these tribes had their own social structure depending on their environment. One tribe had such as easy go life that the men of the tribe spent huge amounts of time with their children, something that is denied an awful lot of children in both first and third world countries. That is why we have spread to all parts of this planet beacuse we have the bility to adapt and change out behaviour to better suit the environment we live in.
Becky
Its not my experience with dogs. They seem to have very specific relationships to each other, jealousy, affection etc

As for the TV program! What you are talking about is minor differences, dependent on a lot of other factors and survival pressures. The French spend considerably more time with their families and children than the English; this does not however imply any form of evolutionary divergence. Different wolf packs behave differently depending on social pressures, availability of food, climate etc etc even though they are essentially the same species or subspecies.
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Wysiwyg
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18-09-2009, 02:03 PM
Wolf scientist David Mech explains some of it here and explains how he was instrumental in pushing pack theory/alpha in wolves (but wished he hadn't, now he as a scientist has learnt more):

http://www.4pawsu.com/alphawolf.pdf

One of his books was considered seminal, yet contained much info re alpha etc ... many still follow that book, and in fact if I'd not known anything about this discussion and had ordered it recently, I'd be thinking of wolves as Alpha too, it's that easy

this site is also good for explaining some of the discussion and why the old wolf theory doesn't apply to current dog training anyway:

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

Wys
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Wysiwyg
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18-09-2009, 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by rich c View Post
Here's a book that uses the dreaded leader and pack words but appears to be about how I see the 'alpha' role. I might have to buy a copy!
That's a really good book - all hers are!
She does use the word "leader" (which to my mind is better than "pack leader" or "alpha") . I'm not sure what she'd use now as I think that is not one of her newer books. Her latest one is about dogs and emotions

Wys
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Jackie
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18-09-2009, 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by wolfdogowner View Post
Response to Jackbox:

The point is that in the instant, when a dog challenges you you are most likely to make some attempt to control it. You can think about the cause later. Looking for advise or seeking a solution can apply to those that follow the pack rules or those that are opponents.
My point is , if my dog challenged me at any given time, why would I want to control it... if lets say my dog challenged me over a toy he did not want to give up, would I force him to give it up because I am the stronger one, or would I use my brain and use distaction...i.e do a swap.. to me thats not "control" over my dogs, just common sense,

Itake it you would use a different approach..

If a dog challenged you in any way, how do you deal with it..????

Originally Posted by wolfdogowner View Post
The only reason for bringing up the way a wolf thinks is because you said: "Simple basic discipline , without having to buy into the belief that if a dog challenges you you need to assert pack leader and think like a wolf!!!!!!!". The outdated theory that is being discussed does not necessarily represent how a wolf really thinks or acts; therefore those that live by the 'Pack leader approach' may not be accurately mimicking the actions of a wolf pack anyway.

Not sure of your point here.

I was not associating pack leader / wolf, and basic discipline in the same thought to educate my dogs.



I said, I dont need to refer or mimic pack leader and "wolf" to gain success in the way I educate my dogs.

But I think we agree , that pack /hierarchy and looking to the wolf , in dealing with our domesticated dogs is outdated!!!
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