Interesting to read different points of view as always!

I think what the Barnados guy was saying was to remove the child while it's still a baby and place it in permanent adoption to give it the best chance and I guess it hasn't had time to bond with its real parents so to be taken won't affect it in that way.

It's a difficult one and there are elements of that idea that don't sit comfortably, as like you say, what is an ideal family and what does it look like?

Are there more tearaways these days than there were 30/40/50 years ago? If so, why?

I have to say that if a person previous children had been taken into care as they were neglected/abused etc, then in my opinion as harsh as it seems I believe the woman should be sterilised, therefore unable to create any more children. The woman who has 14 and says she will continue - is a beast IMO does she have no care for the 14 removed from her, just thinks she can continue to churn out more??

I believe that family values has all but disappeared and the in the most deprived areas the circle of disdain for order/value/work etc just creates more of the same, these children do not stand a chance.

Children are what we make them and I just find it horrifying that people continue to be allowed to have kids when they show no thought for their existing and instill no values in them.

Having a child is a privilige and quite honestly not a right as many seem to think. I think you should have a baby license as well as a dog license !! LOL

I would go so far as to say that people who smoke and heavily drink throughout their pregnancy when they know how harmful it can be to their child, should be harshly criticised instead of this kind of blase approach there seems to be. If you cant stop smoking for your child whilst your pregnant then when are you going to?

There are millions of people who struggle or cant have children yet the ones that seem to "pop" them out dont deserve them.

Having said all of that the pre and post natal support here is excellent, I was not chucked out of hospital had very good support and was visited for 14 days after L was born and wa svery happy with my care.

I also have very supportive health visitor, who I have a good relationship with. There are plenty of support services out there for people, baby groups, family centres, classes for positive parenting and many in our area are free yet the people they are aimed at dont use them as they just dont care enough. IMO.


I watched a woman in our local "rough" area shopping complex, as she swigged from a bottle of "buckfast" chain smoked and rocked her newborn babys pram at the same time, whilst having a screaming match with her "luvva" at the same time. Quite honestly had I had a gun it would have made me want to shoot her because we are truly better off without this kind of society member.

heartless, yes perhaps a little but I just cant stand people who dont want to get out of the gutter and are quite happy where they are. I see them round here all the time.

I vote you for Prime Minister.

thanks but I think i am probably on the wrong side of the PC debate most of the time as I amnt what you would call Tactful wen its things I feel strongly about !!!

There is just too much namby pandy hand holding for people who just need to be told to suck it up and get on with it !!

Well exactly! I think you have to be very clear about what you mean by "bad" families and "good" families. If you're talking about criminal and dangerous abuse or neglect of the child then of course the child should be removed. That's nothing new or revolutionary, even if it is hard to put into effect.

But who are we to judge that one of eight children being raised on benefits is really worse off than any other. I know people who grew up in families affected by poverty, drug addiction, alcoholism and gambling, yet were encouraged in their education and have gone on to become seriously high achievers. And I know middle class kids, sent to great schools and nurtured in many ways, yet have been seriously psychologically scarred by their parents divorce, or the death of a close family member.

I totally think that SS should be involved with vulnerable kids, but in a supportive role where possible. If there's a chance of children's lives being improved within their own family, then that's got to be better than them being transplanted into who knows what.

Whilst I agree nearly (little harsh in some areas, lol) with what you say one of the things that has really shocked me is the amount of affluent mothers that drink behind closed doors and how many actually are subjected to domestic violence! So whilst those in your local "rough" area are in the streets with no shame it maybe that your local "affluent" area are doing similar just with shame behind closed doors. Net result screwed up kids all round!

But I'm not sure if there is a decline in parenting skills or if it is just more hyped by the media?

LOl - No I know where you are coming from, however of the mums that i know who drink they do it either once a week when the kids are in bed, or have a glass of wine or two with their meal. They arent sitting in shopping centres shouting their mouths off infront of their children etc - and what worries me with those people are if they are willing to behave that badly in public - how much worse do they get in the privacy of their own home??

I think some children would definitely be better off away from their natural families. There are people who have children, but simply can't parent them for whatever reason. The longer children are kept with unsuitable carers the more damage is done to them.
Also moving children in and out care doesn't help. A family near us fostered a baby for about a year. He went back to his mother, was abused by her boyfriend, came back to his foster family and then back to his mother after her partner moved out. This pattern was repeated several times until the foster mother said she couldn't cope with the upset it was causing her own children. How many chances should parents be given?
The problem I see is in borderline cases. It would need the wisdom of Solomon to know the right answer for every child.
However I am convinced there are more disturbed children in schools now than there were when I started teaching in the 70s.
Personally I think we could do with some good state run boarding schools. Children could keep contact with their families, go home for holidays, if this was appropriate and get a decent education in a stable environment. Of course it would cost, but so does the present system.

Whilst I agree mostly, one of the hardest things anyone can do is leave an abusive relationship - particularly if kids are involved.

I suffered physical and emotional abuse for a very long time. Oscar never witnessed any of it as he was a baby but he would have heard me being shouted at etc. When the physical side affected Oscar and he was onthe receiving end of his father's bad mood, I took him and left. NO compromise. That was it. Even though I'm legally trained and have been a police officer, it was just as hard for me to leave as it is for anyone in that situation.

But I did what I felt best for Oscar at the time. I only wish I'd done it sooner. So, I think even my parenting skills are questionable on that sense. After all, what damage did I do to Oscar by staying in the marriage for so long? etc. The list of questions and "what ifs" is endless but I think some very strong and strict regs should be set down and adhered to. I don't envy the person who has to do it though.

Laura xx

this discussion is extremely close to my heart.a family member is in the process of having her son put up for adoption. shes failed all the parenting courses, and SS where taking her to court to have parental responsibility taken away from her.
i have had a huge falling out with her, over this. she had 3 other children taken away and adopted 7 yrs ago. so obiously she didnt learn by her mistakes.(yes im bitter)
and i do think that the little boy will be better off, he wont be screamed and swore at.
but because of the fall out. his mother dont want me to beable to go and have contact visits.
sorry this is all jumbled up. but my heads all over the place at the moment.
there is alot of support for young mums now. they have sure start (down here) where the mums n kids can have days out. play areas. and SS offer a family support worker. who will help the mum.
we never had any of that.(showing my age here) the head health visitor if u had a prob u just went n talked to her.
i think mums have it alot easier now. but some mums just dont seem to care anymore.