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View Poll Results: Poll - Do you agree you should be alpha male over your dog?
Yes 70 39.33%
No 71 39.89%
Other, please specify 37 20.79%
Voters: 178. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details.



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Promethean
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02-05-2009, 06:11 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I am terrified of very loud thunder claps right above the house, and when these happen, will always jump and exclaim. Hal, being exceptionally intelligent and very sharp, picked up on this immediately and because I am alpha female or Pack leader, what you will, he thought "aha, there must be something in this thunder, AF is scared so therefore I had better be.


If this was so, then service dogs to phobic people would end up sharing their phobias. We know that this isn't so. It's quite normal for animals to be scared of loud sounds and a very common.


Originally Posted by Gnasher
No !! It was me that caused his phobia.
I don't think so. This transference is not easy even with your own species much less across species.

Originally Posted by Gnasher
And it was my duty to get him over his fear, which I did, kindly, calmly and consistently "holding his paw" metaphorically speaking by showing him that there was nothing to be scared of
This assumes THEORY OF MIND which dogs don't seem to posses - at least not to the level required for what you suggest. For humans it takes us 3-4 years.
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Gnasher
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02-05-2009, 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by Promethean View Post
If this was so, then service dogs to phobic people would end up sharing their phobias. We know that this isn't so. It's quite normal for animals to be scared of loud sounds and a very common.




I don't think so. This transference is not easy even with your own species much less across species.


This assumes THEORY OF MIND which dogs don't seem to posses - at least not to the level required for what you suggest. For humans it takes us 3-4 years.

O dear, this is becoming quite monotonous, but I'm sorry Promethean, yet again, I disagree with absolutely everything you say !! Please don't take it personally, but I just do !

I'm sure you're right when you say that it is quite common for animals to be scared of loud noises, but Hal was not scared of ANYTHING until I made him so ... thunder and fireworks. And just as quickly, I made him un-scared. Don't forget he was an alpha male ... very uncool for alphas to show anything other than extreme coolness and unconcern for much in life except sex !!

Again, re the transference, you are just going to have to take my word for it. I am telling the truth.

As for your last point, I will treat it with the contempt it deserves quite frankly !! I SO disagree with it to be off the scale !!
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Promethean
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02-05-2009, 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Please don't take it personally, but I just do !
If I can't back up my ideas with empirical evidence and logic, they are not worth having.

I'm sure you're right when you say that it is quite common for animals to be scared of loud noises, but Hal was not scared of ANYTHING until I made him so
If what you say is true, then it points to an animal with serious pathology. Fear is a natural and an essential aspect of survival, it is integral to all vertebrates - and maybe even invertebrates as well.

You maintain that because you are alpha (an outdated concept) you can transfer fear to the animal. What you suggest borders on magical thinking.

Don't forget he was an alpha male ... very uncool for alphas to show anything other than extreme coolness and unconcern for much in life except sex !!
This characterization of "alpha males" is straight out of folklore/cartoons.

Again, re the transference, you are just going to have to take my word for it. I am telling the truth.
I believe you think you are telling the truth. But your explanations tend to be emotionally based - personal and subjective.

As for your last point, I will treat it with the contempt it deserves quite frankly !! I SO disagree with it to be off the scale !!
Your reaction is irrational given that there scientific evidence to support my assertions about a dog's theory of mind
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Wysiwyg
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03-05-2009, 06:27 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
So people keep telling me ! Yet this is how I was raised a child, as I raised my child, as I have always treated all my numerous dogs and I have never ever had "anything" go wrong.

It is the natural way of teaching our young not to be frightened of things which they perceive to be dangerous IMO.

Maybe I have just been lucky !
I would doubt if that was flooding, Gnasher - or even it it was, it would be a very mild form of it which, because of human reasoning, did no harm.

I wouldn't describe it as flooding, this is a good example of flooding from Pam Reid's Excelerated Learning:

"Try forcing a dog that is fearful of people on roller blades to sit next to a sidewalk as person after person goes by on rollerblades. The dog will become extremely jumpy and will continually try to escape. When the escape is thwarted, this too is extremely frightening and so the fear escalates to new heights. The only way that flooding will work in such a situation is to wait until the dog has become exhausted and is physically unable to respond fearfully any longer. At this point is it actually experiencing the feared stimulus without reacting and extinction is able to occur. Usually this is not an ethical option"

On people: "Sometimes the treatment works ...but more often than not the person experiences such fright and discomfort during the experience that the fear becomes even stronger"

True flooding means the person or dog experiences what amounts to terror!

Wys
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Wysiwyg
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03-05-2009, 06:32 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
i really don't buy into facing up to our fears = flooding.
I wouldn't describe facing up to our fears as flooding exactly. For instance, if I was to face up to my fears, I'd probably do it very slowly at a distance I could cope with - that would not be flooding, it would be desensitisation

I'm way too much of a wuss to opt for making myself terrified!

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Wysiwyg
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03-05-2009, 07:17 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
... Together, we sorted out my fear. I would go pottering around the lanes on him, walking and trotting until I felt confident enough to go on bridleways and do a bit of cantering. I forced myself to do it, was I being cruel to myself ?? !!
but it could be argued that you did all this at a level you knew you could cope with, which isn't the same as flooding IMO.

Again, I'd say that is more like desensitisation

How would you have felt if instead of the schoolmaster, you'd been forced to ride a very sparky exciteable young horse who wanted to gallop everywhere and there were busy roads around? I'm sure you'd have been very scared, and IMO rightly so!! That would be more like flooding.

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wolfdogowner
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03-05-2009, 07:26 AM
"Fear is a natural and an essential aspect of survival, it is integral to all vertebrates" (Promethean). Absolutely true. Many phobias are described as 'irrational fear', I think that it is not so irrational but it may have resulted from a fear mechanism getting out of hand.

I suffer from a fear of heights, I think it has a very valid basis. I have to slowly desensitize my self if ever I have to work at a height I do not like. Usually this works for me. I dont much care for the concept of flooding; I certainly don't think it would work for my wolfdog who has more 'instinctive' behaviour; I suspect it would be very damaging.

I watch my wolfdog; she has a very cautious behaviour and will approach strange objects with care, if I make a noise moving my chair she will retreat first and then consider what made the noise and why before deciding the threat level. This could be considered a neurotic reaction or a survival mechanism at work: I prefer the second interpretation.
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Wysiwyg
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03-05-2009, 07:27 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg
Ah, but the only thing is - that can and does happen with any of us, "pack leader" or not ..... what you describe isn't due to Hal seeing you as pack leader, it's due to him responding to other individuals showing fear, and others being startled.

You can, for instance, see a similar thing (I think it's similar although I've not thought it through yet) in wild grazing animals in Africa - wildebeest showing fear, for instance, will scare not only each other but also the zebra and all will be on alert, and with adrenalin flowing ready to fight or flee....

Wys
x

Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
No !! It was me that caused his phobia.
Yes I didn't say you didn't ...
I remember so clearly the night it happened. I was sitting in the conservatory with him watching a thunder storm. It was after a very riding bad accident that I had had during which my horse was killed,
I'm so so sorry to read this, that must have been awful

and my nerves were totally shattered and on edge. ...that's when Hal's fear of thunder started,
What I meant was that with the same scenario, that would happen very probably to the posters who have posted to say they disagree with the alpha view....Ie you don't have to be alpha for that to happen. You can be the dog's owner or guardian or "parent" but you don't have to act as an alpha for the dog to be afraid under such circumstances...

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Meg
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03-05-2009, 08:10 AM
Originally Posted by Claire
Gnasher - I think you just like a good debate TBH. I really don`t believe you hold the opposing view, I think you`ve picked your corner and have decided to make the Forum equivalent of Custers Last Stand.
None of your posts about the way you actually live or treat your dogs bears out your claim to be in an Alpha Male role.
When this is pointed out, you switch to an alternative debating tactic. Have you thought of going into politics at all?
We are all wasting our time trying to convince Gnasher away from her 'Alpha' views Some people prefer to believe their dogs are really wolves because they buy into the whole wolf philosophy and the mysticism surrounding it .

I understand Gnasher is a great fan of Shaun Ellis somtimes known as The Wolfman , (please correct me if I am wrong Gnasher)
I saw these wise words on the internet from the pen of Mr Ellis, he is I believe talking about dogs here and not wolves.....


Beta dogs definitely need an alpha to follow and I would even go further to say it’s cruel to expect a beta to make leadership decisions!

Leadership must be applied in a balanced way and never forced upon the beta. Leadership is all about the practical application of ‘superior’ knowledge/experience which inspires the beta to place his total trust in the leader. For human pack leaders, force should never be used.

mmm .

I guess if you make your living from an involvement with Wolves you may start to view other things in those terms.
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Meg
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03-05-2009, 08:26 AM
Please note , a Moderator had deleted some of the off topic posts and split the tread , the posts about Amy's bus fear are now here..

http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=105847

Thank you.
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