That`d be all those Wolf Man people. With all them wolves. The rest of us don`t need to compete - with others or our dogs.

Hehe.

It's very close but that honestly doesn't surprise me. This thread proves what a closely matched amount of opinions there are on this subject.

Interesting!

I wonder what the "Other" could be counted as... I voted Other, and perhaps should have voted No then...

If we count the Others as not voting for Yes, (alpha) then it shows a lot of peeps don't support that view.

Would also be interested in knowing if those who voted for Yes know the history of pack theory and alpha leadership and understand that recent science tells us it's not as it was once thought.

This is a good site for reading about alpha/dominance etc

http://www.4pawsu.com/dogpsychology.htm

Here's a couple of quotes from there:

"More in-depth studies of wolves in their natural habitats have since revealed that a wolf pack is made up of a family; the breeding pair who shares leadership, and their offspring 1, who stay with the pack until 2-3 years of age, when they start their own pack. Eventually, almost every wolf becomes an "alpha" if they survive long enough mate and breed."

"Observations of free-roaming dogs throughout the world reveal that dogs are social animals, using displays of submission to keep the peace, not displays of dominance. These dogs, sometimes referred to as pariah dogs, are more scavengers than predators, and therefore live much more solitary lives than wolves, since it does not benefit a scavenger to share limited resources with a large group of other animals. These dogs rarely form packs, and when they do, the packs are loosely structured with animals joining and leaving randomly and frequently, a trait not seen in wolf packs."

Attachment to humans, a comparative study between ....dog and hand reared wolves, very interesting if you have the patience to read it! :

http://www.behav.org/00library/artic...attachment.pdf



Wys
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Á bit more:

"In Dogs: A Startling New Understanding of Canine Origin Behavior & Evolution, Ray and Lorna Coppinger write:

"Today, the popular dog press seems to feel that if dogs descended from wolves, they would have wolf qualities. But the natural selection model points out that the wolf qualities are severely modified. Dogs do not think like wolves, nor do they behave like them.""

"Further, the domesticated forms of wild species will, as a general rule, revert back to their original form after being feral (wild) for a few generations. Dogs, of which there are many feral types throughout the world, have not reverted back to wolves either in appearance or behavior. "

'Leaders' in all animals control assets more often than they control individuals through the use of force. As stated by Myrna Milani, DVM, author and veterinary ethologist:

"...the mark of a true leader is the ability to control without force. And, in fact, wild animals who rely on brute force to maintain their status typically get eliminated from the gene pool because this approach requires so much energy."

Dominance Hierarchies in Wolves

"The concept, nature, and importance of the dominance hierarchy or pecking order ...itself in many species are in dispute. Similarly, in a natural wolf pack, dominance is not manifested as a pecking order and seems to have much less significance than the results of studies of captive packs had implied. In a natural wolf pack, the dominance rules bear no resemblance to those of the pecking order, that of a group of similar individuals competing for rank."

-L. David Mech
Senior Scientist
Biological Resources Division
U.S. Geological Survey

"On a recent episode of It's Me or the Dog, an American Bulldog that was exhibiting aggressive behavior towards visitors was diagnosed with hypothyroidism after the trainer recommended a vet check. The owners were previously unaware that the dog had a medical condition which was contributing to his behavior.

There are also some behaviors which do not have physical causes, but mental, such as compulsive disorders. A popular internet video shows a dog attacking its own foot. This is a very good example of an compulsive behavior problem. "

(ie these problems could not be solved by alpha/dominance although traditionally those who follow such methods would be likely to use aversives and punishment and not consider medical or other causes - Wys).

Sorry I got a bit carried away there , but it's all so interesting! I'm not sure the Yes's and the No's will ever agree but the discussion is fascinating .

Wys
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OMG you must have been really scared when she went off like that. When dogs get a whiff of a scent or a visual stimulus, they are like lightning.

Yes, the answer is definitely training. I've never been in a sheep situation thank goodness, although after my girl was well trained I did do exercises with her near to sheep who were behind a fence, but I'd not let her off lead near them for her own safety. There is definitely something about sheep that gets dogs excited.

It's the same with young animals like foals - my girl knows they are different (more vulnerable) and although I can stil have her off lead on walks where there are foals, I'm very watchful as I want to protect her

That's really awkward, any dog or wolfey would be stimulated to chase...the owner had to bear a bit of responsibility methinks, although I know it doesn't always work like that...

I'd have to disagree with you on that point , only because I think in some circumstances it's just safer. I would have my dog on lead by the chickens and then off lead after (but I appreciate we have different views obviously). If your lad was off lead and presumably seen frequently off lead around the village (?) how did the villagers know absolutely and for sure it was a fox and not your boy who had got any chickens afterwards?

I quite agree

Wys
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I voted other as well....the other (for me) was a definate 'No' vote for the Alpha, but (as I explained at the start) I expect my pets to live in Harmony with me - not the other way around.

After doing some stuff with Shaun Ellis years ago I brought into the Alpha thing for a while, but I like to think I have progressed on from that now to a better understanding about dogs. He even stated at the time that he felt people could not be an Alpha to thier dogs as the interactions were wrong. He was very shocked when he heard about one of my dogs behaviour, who he felt was being a true Beta....anyhow.....theories and thoughts move on.....I guess it all comes down to finding a safe way to live with your dog.
As long as it works and does not cause harm to anyone - great!

There's a programme coming up in May which may be interesting, I'm going to watch it anyway

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/latest/...a-theoryq.html

"The programme's purpose is to discuss science in an informative and light-hearted format. In the best traditions of scientific inquiry, the experts are subjected to some gentle ribbing that can expose weaknesses or confirm that their theories stand up to scrutiny.


The theory I was asked to propose was that "Dogs bark because they live with us", which at first appears nonsensical. How can they bark just because they live with us? But on closer examination, a case can be made for it. My argument went like this..."

Wys
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That's 2 "Others" which are a definite No to the Alpha then I'm not sure I could really describe my views but yes not too far from yours.

That's very interesting, I never knew that - I thought he did think people could be alphas to their dogs but clearly that was incorrect.

Yes, I agree, theories at the end of the day are only theories, whatever they are. It's easy to forget that, and unless one day we can actually speak to animals and hold a conversation we have to really follow science and how it progresses in relation to, for example, this question and others like it

It's important we don't "stick" or have thoughts in stone, as things are always changing.

Good post there Tassle

Wys
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He may do now - I have not had anything to do with him for several years. I first met him when he was working with the Longleat pack about 12 years ago and worked with him and his theories abit then. Its frightening when I think about how long ago it was !

Thank you