I have a dog not a wolf

I was talking to someone earlier today about some issues I have with Fido and they kept annoying me by saying in a wolf pack this would happen and that would happen blah blah blah. I kept saying but I don't own a wolf Fido is a dog and dogs descended from wolfs thousands of years ago so it's like saying you shouldn't do that because in an ape family this would happen and that would happen blah blah blah.
I know where they are coming from but when I lived in Italy they don't treat dogs well at all and most dogs are stray and roam the hills and towns. They don't attack people like I imagine a wolf would do if it was stuck in to the middle of a town but they scavenge, beg or do jobs for food. For example I saw some guys looking for a way in to the house ( They had scaled the 6 foot fence round the house) so the next day I found a few nice big dogs gave them some food and they followed me home. They stayed in the garden all night and on the first night they started barking and I saw 2 guys jump back over the fence and the dogs going mental but in the morning I opened the gates and away they went back in to town. About 8pm the next day when we were having a bottle of wine out side the same 3 dogs turned up sat at the gate so we let them in and gave them some food and they stood guard in the garden for the whole night. They did this for the 6 months I was there and my mum and dad said they did it for the 4 years they were there too and when one dog didn't turn up another would take his place.
I really can't see a wolf doing that so that was my point about dogs evolving to adapt in our world so some of the “the wolf pack would do this” is pointless when talking about dogs now.
The issue was raised because I think it was stupid and pointless to hold my dogs food and play with it then throw his bowl on the floor so he thinks I am just giving him what ever I can't be bothered eating. All that just because an Alpha male in a wolf pack would only let others eat once he is done but I think most dogs have evolved so they realise they get food for doing a job e.g. guarding, agility, companionship and so on.

I was just wondering if anyone thought I have a point or if I am just going mad and being huffy cause I want my own way lol.

I think you are partly right....however, in 'make up' the dog is still much, much closer to a wolf than to a human and imo, if you are going to try to understand what makes a dog tick, it is more sensible to apply what is known about wolves than to apply human psychology.

But I think certain people carry it too far - there is clearly a difference between dogs and wolves and 'wolf logic' shouldn't be followed blindly. Added to this, there is also general disagreement about just how wolves do behave, partly because it seems that the truly wild ones act very differently from those in captivity.

I totally agree. The generally accepted expert on the behaviour of wolves in the wild is David Mech - his latest book is well worth a read. He's of the opinion that wolves are less heirarchical packs and more family groups with the father naturally at the head of the group - alpha male is not thought to be quite so dominant as originally claimed.

I understand it is a lot more do do with where the wolves eat on a carcass as opossed to when.

I don't wash with the food thing at all - any more that the going through doors first etc.

I always try and steer people away from an 'Alpha' dog philosophy - I really don;t think my dogs see me as a alpha dog, I can't hope to recreate the body postures and pheromone signals of any animal.

I do think that there are certain ways to treat a dog and some of them may be mimicking how dogs treat each other but when people say we do this because “that's what a wolf pack would do” is like when you phone up to book something and they say just hold a second the system is running slow. (basicly i don't have a clue)
The wolf pack people seem to have different opinions on it too. Like I was told by one guy you should go through the door first cause that is what the alpha would do because in the wild the alpha is always the first to check everything out but another said one pack member would be like the “enforcer” but not be the alpha and check out new things.
I do understand that no one trainer is correct all the time but a bit of consistency in the theory would be nice.

hey guys, i feel its about letting a dog be a dog.i try to allow my dogs to practice doing just that,try not to interfer when i dont have to ..alpha is something that is there between the dogs,,,whos the boss?..there is a difference IMO..and they do pack together but is it in wolf fashion?hummmmm.yes they are not far from the pack and will do so to survive ...but thet dont have to as pets...if left alone they might pool there resourses and pack up .....they religh on us and only the stronger will survive.....larger dogs seem to be closer to the wolf but do no better than a small one ...a wolf expert ones told me a wolf will never look to a human for help during a task ...a dog allways will.........phil

I watched a programme with "The Wolf Man" Shaun Ellis and he said the "Alpha" wolf gets to eat the best parts of the carcass...this being the liver, kidneys, etc but all the wolves were definitely on the carcass together,just had their own areas

Jann

I think some breeds are much more "pack-oriented" than others and an understanding of wolf behaviour is a help in the management of such breeds. The problem is that, quite often people use an oversimplified and naive approach to "pack theory" whereas in the lives of a real wolf pack, the reality is much more complex and sophisticated.

Mick

you do have a wolf. dogs and wolvws are the same species
dogs are domesticated wolves forever in a juvanile state

but
we dont really understand how and why wolf packs do what they do
and you are not a dog or a wolf, and your dog knows that

totally agree that dogs want to work with people, they have been selectivly bred for thousands of years from the ones who most wanted to work with people

all studies watching wild wolves, wolves in captivity, or wild packs of dogs are totaly flawed
a domesticated dogs natural environment is with people so if you want to study dog behaivior you have to do just that, study dogs with people

interestingly enough some small dogs, terriers and the like are considered closer to the adult wolf than many large breeds of dogs, there behaiviour includes actually going in for the kill, which only an adult wolf does. other behaviours in other breeds such as pointing, fetching and warning are juvinile wolf behaviours

totally agree tho it is so bugging when people keep suggesting your dog has problems because you are not alpha enough
i really dont think the alpha pair worry about who got on the sofa and watching wolves eating they deff dont form a nice que and wait in turns to eat

Why restrict yourself to choosing between the study of human and wolf behaviour. Doesn't it make more sense to understand what makes a dog living in a house with humans tick? (Or, if you are interested in pack animals study the pack that you are interested in).

Lets face it, we know much more about domestic dogs than we can ever know about wolves. We can easily study dogs in a whole variety of situations from one pampered pooch living with a family to a whole pack of dogs living with minimul human interaction (e.g. beagle packs). We can also study specific breeds - in my limited experience there are HUGE differences between certain breeds of dogs.

Why get hung up about the wolf (with regards to both diet and behaviour) when:

a) we know so little about it.
b) it's pure speculation as to which aspects of the dog are similar to the wolf.

It just seems a back to front way of looking at things to me.

Option 1: Study the domesticated animal that you want to learn about. An animal that we know lots about and have had considerable contact with for hundreds of years.

OR

Option 2: Study a distant relative of the animal that you want to learn about. One that we know little about, is very hard to observe, and one that is known to behave differently in the wild than in captivity. Then speculate from what you find out how the distantly related, domesticated animal that you are interested in might behave and what food it might thrive on.

The second option might be an interesting intellectual study that could throw up a few interesting theories, but I don't think you could draw any firm conclusions from it.