Belgian ring with scores of 380 and more/400 in the highest level.

Not like SCHtz where a score of 98/100 is normal. With my dog i can only get 360 in the best circonstances

when everything goes right and this with dogs that are "over the top" in everything

greetings


Johan

I still don't understand how the UK police forces manage to train their high drive dogs to a very high standard without the use of a prong?

If `they` can`t effectively and kindly train any dog and resort to using prongs and shock collars then the last thing they could be called is `the best trainers in the world`, it would make them the pits imo.

Hmmm like my father when he was a military handler, his dogs were not used for a hobby or sport but work, on which peoples lives depended as is the case with all military dogs. He never had to use force, brutality, pain, or fear to train his dogs, in fact e-collars and I believe prongs are not allowed to be used on military dogs in the UK, [ prongs are also outlawed to UK Police at the time Acer was brutally killed after handlers lockers were found to have Prongs inside with blood, fur and skin on them...], yet they are easily among the best trained dogs world wide.
I have trained two dogs in Protection using kind methods only - I know which dogs I would put my faith in when it comes to those trained with kindness compared to those trained by mental or physical force.


Experienced trainers don`t need to use those sort of tools, an experienced and ethical trainer will know that if unable to train a particular dog without those things then they are not the right trainer for that dog, and / or the dog is not right for the task he or she is being trained for, experienced trainers don`t let their ego and personal stubborness over ride the good of the dog.

My original post was questioning methodology - do ends justify means. In my view they don`t. I train at Essex Dog Training Centre, where they have a top class display team. I`ve seen them train and believe me, there is no cruelty or coercion. So I don`t beleive dogs can`t be trained without cruel methods. I did a few classes with a top gundog trainer who also uses positive methods - and she told me about the cruel methods in this field as well. She never used them - therefore again it is clear to me that cruelty is not necessary.
Essex police used to use prong collars. But then they used to hang their dogs by choke chains over fences and kick them as well. After the enquiry (when a police dog died) these cruel methods were stopped. I haven`t noticed Essex Police dogs are any less well trained.

And that was TEN years ago.

Yup - but you said you didn`t understand how police manage to train without prong collars - and I was pointing out how my local force does. Well, have been doing, as you say, for 10 years.

I don't regard any trainer who uses prong collars/e-collars to be the "best in the world" - far from it. This statement is totally out of context to my opinions on prong collars/e-collars. Your ideas of "the best trainers in the world" is obviously very different from mine.

With regards to your second paragraph....Of course you have to have an understanding with the dog, not abuse the power or control you have over the dog. It seems to me that you think you have to abuse the power and control you have over the dog in order to acheive "results". This is not the case, imo.

It was at the time of Acer`s killing that the bloodied prongs were found, [ same training centre ], and were banned for police use as a result. These are some of the details which led to it being looked into :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/204137.stm

I think Moobli was pointing out the irony that without prongs being used, UK police dogs are at the top of the scale so to speak

ah....here is a stick claire...this is the right end, which makes that one the .....

Bless