What Pita is referring to is something designed to surprise the dog with air, not cause a physical painful shock, the two types of `shock` are different, one is physical the other is not.

I did ask before but you may have missed it among so many posts. What methods are you trying ? How long do you try each method for ? Please do post this info in a separate thread or the previous thread you started - it`s important to know what you have / are trying and for how long, as the way your comment is written sounds very much like you are trying different things too quickly in succession/same time, and getting frustrated so dismissing methods that you are not getting results from instntly but you can`t expect to get results without consistency, time, and patience.

Which is what we are all duty bound to do by law so I don`t understand why you are so determined to be able to walk him off lead near to livestock including outside a fence line when you know it`s the wrong thing to do regardless of how well behaved a dog may be about that stock. This is not about your dog being let out by falling tree`s, it`s about how you wish to conduct a walk and it seems you want something which would be illegal or at best foolhardy just because it`s what you want to do, it`s as though ego of wanting to say `look how good my dog is around sheep` is more important than what is legally and morally correct for everyone else who would not dream of letting their dog be of lead near livestock no matter how well behaved their dogs are

Sally I don`t think you are giving other methods the time and possibly the application needed. How old is the dog and how many methods have you tried since you`ve had him ?


If he has gone off without you in the hypothetical s you give you would`nt be with him to have any control, whether with shock collars or otherwise. Did the `trainer` not explain to you that for a shock collar to `work` it has to be worn by the dog every time the dog is in the situation in need of zapping which means if your dog did a runner from escaping or whatever, unless you are present and within zapping range your dog will have the same prey drive and would probably get shot so it would not make any difference.
The shocks are only `effective` in the moment, and if you put the dog in the situation, [ which you would have to as shock collar work - I refuse to call it `training` - is designed to set the dog up to fail ], and don`t zap or the battery fails, then the dog is immediately at square one again and the zap would have to go up a notch, [ or several ]. Can you seriously not see the flaw in it all as a `method` ?

It might have worked in your mind but it has`nt in your dogs mind, hence :

Not as successful as you would like to believe in other words.

A lead or longline totally solve`s the problem instantly and is the correct thing to do anyway for all dogs when around livestock.


Pain / fear methods are `quick fixes` - yet the one which is supposed to be the `ultimate` quick fix clearly did not work.
The most effective training, [ positive methods imo ], is done with very brief sessions of a minute here, a minute there, up to two or three minutes at a time for any specific individual training element depending on the dogs concentration span, so whoever you let/told you to/or themselves did that 20 minutes of your dog being zapped is dire imo

The tool is cowardly, its designed that way

The tool is cruel, its designed that way

I would`nt say you were I would say a bit naive and impatient though as you let someone zap your dog clearly without making sure you knew the ramifications and the reality of it and without fairly trying far kinder methods first

We have been trying to explain that they do hurt, that is what they are designed for, dogs are very good at masking pain, it`s not a flaw in you not to realise when he was being hurt, dogs are experts at hiding it but that pain is being inflicted and get the timing wrong and you could end up with a dog which won`t stop at cornering a sheep without touching it, [ or a child or whatever else the dog ends up associating to the shock ].

[quote]I am trying to weigh up the risks of my dog becoming loose, against effective methods of training him to respond to me while he is off lead and near livestock. I believe it is in Spike's best interest for me to HAVE that control, if I can achieve it.[/quoet]

I don`t know how else to say it other than repeating myself - no dog should be off lead near livestock unless the dog is trained to working that stock.


I`m sorry but no you have`nt tried everything and I don`t think you have given enough time/consistency and possibly not correct application to the things you have tried, you just can`t chop and change methods and expect results, it does`nt happen that way.

[ will try to find the relevant posts and have them all moved to your other thread as this is all too far from topic when its all about specifics of one dog on a debate thread ]

Patch youre an intelligent woman, I dont think you have to call someone stupid because they look at something differently to you.

She trusted that person and she believes that she acted in the best interest of the dog.

I also think that I share a different stance to you on my own definition of pain, my dogs definition of pain and fear.
Someone flicked my ear im not going to like it but Im not going to need therapy afterwards but it isnt excruciating but it will get my attention every time.

I dont think youre stupid because you will perceive your dogs pain differently to me and it doesnt make you stupid putting your faith in someone and trusting them in good faith.

I did`nt call Sally stupid, I made a point of saying I don`t think that
I did say I think she was naive - that`s not the same as stupid - my agility students put their faith in me to teach them properly and safely - but I make sure I explain things properly and I do tell them what not to do in order to avoid taking risks with their dogs. Had a new student this week with two cavaliers, one coughed a little so straight away I asked if she had a problem with her throat, [ handler was holding the dogs collar and dog coughed ], and she told me she has soft palate. I did ask if she had been passed fit for agility and if she had been heart checked,[ due to a breed ailment ], and she verified she had been as did the member who brought her along as its a requirement of my club that I check that the dogs are considered fit/healthy and breeds with known severe problems I prefer owners to have checked out first by their vet but she had already done so before deciding to try agility anyway ].
If I had`nt bothered to ask and her dog had not been fit enough then she would have been naive for trusting in me - not stupid, just naive.
[ I have a personal policy of checking into any breeds I don`t already know much about which people are wanting to train with at my club in order to be as well armed as possible for any breed specific traits and known ailments so that I can give each dog my best care and attention to suit their needs, it just gives me a good basis for each dog to know what to expect if each dog does have their strongest breed traits ].

yeah youre right apologies

Or unless you have permission to exercise your dogs on there (free)or "work" other animals on that land. However stock reliability is paramount.

If the probelm is one that can and should be solved by the dog being on a lead then surely a painful method shouldn't be employed to solve said problem?


I have had probelms (huge) with a dog with recall, from the very moment he was let off, I knew for sure, thee would be difficulties. There were. We worked VERY hard on a daily basis to crack it and it took a year, but we did it. His recall was nailed with perserverance and apaitence. This dog was a Flat Coat and wanted to share his love with anything that moved...he was off...no distractions etc worked. As I say though, we nailed it...only for it to be ruined by someone lese when he was no longer with us, but with patience and kindness they also nailed it...his recall is now 100% after using kind methods only. It is possible, it just takes time and effort.

Many breeds though are NOT easy to train are they? High prey driven breeds like Huskies etc.. will be damned hard to train, your FCR will be relatively easy in that respect due to its biddable nature. I get cross because so many people moan when an owner has tried her best and gets slammed for using something that works, cant see the problem I really cant. I appreciate the "keeping on a lead" scenario, but what if the dog escapes?
Surely if he doesnt chase Sheep for fear of getting "zapped" as Patch says thats a good thing as far as the dog and the Sheep are concerned? I mean many Dogs are taught by aggressive Rams and Ewes that they arent to be messed with, same thing? Dog scared of Sheep, doesnt chase them for fear of being butted?

Cant rem where I have posted this before
But I wouldnt even touch one of the air collars

Friends of mine have a young collie who chases things walking past the garden, they were at their wits end when she cleard the 5 foot fence and landed feet from a lorry
they went and asked for advice from a trainer saying they had tried everything (really they had just tried calling the dog when she was running and yelling at her afterwards) the trainer recomended the spray collar
they were really happy that in just 3 blasts she had stoped chasing (for that time when the collar was on) they had been advised to leave the collar on for a while while she got used to the feel of it
Sitting on the sofa relaxing and watching tv with the owners the coller malfunctioned and gave her repeated blasts of air
she jumped up and was running round the room like a terrified tasmanian devil - they had to rugby tackle her to get the coller off
It shows great restraint in the face of true terror that noone was bit in that situation
That story was enough to tell me that these things are not a gentle nudge - if it was gentle then it wouldnt have panniced her so much - sure she would have been confused at why it was going off but it wouldnt have been like that



Agree that to tell someone they have got the wrong dog is like shutting the stable door when the horse has gone
but
People so often go for the wrong dog or just base choice on looks which is a great shame
The dog I have wanted since I was tiny is a border collie, I have recearched everything i can find about the breed, I have helped dog walking people who have collies - but even after all of that I didnt feel quite ready for the challange - one day I hope to be good enough
I do find the dogs good looking - but I also love the brains, the superglue to one owner, the problem solving, the daft wee quirks that make that breed that breed
It is too late for us all to comment on the dogs we have - but if it makes someone who has not chosen their dog think about the drives not just the looks of the dog then that is a really good thing

A shock collar only `works` when worn - if the dog escapes and is`nt wearing the collar or the handler is`nt within range with the remote, or the baterries fail etc etc, then the collar is not going to `work`.


Dawn, the dog still has the issue, nothing has been `fixed`, zapping failed anyway, so the dog was shocked for 20 minutes for nothing in the long run - as is usually the case with these punitive supposed `quick fixes`.


Are you suggesting all dogs which chase sheep should have that done to them ? Instead of using a lead ?!

Or dog develops such animosity toward them that its not just chasing any more, its going in for the kill...
I don`t agree with the putting dogs in with sheep in that way anyway, both dog and sheep could be horrendously injured and it can back fire very badly on the dogs psyche and make it an even worse issue, it`s not something to say is ok in such an `easy solution` type way, things like that if they are going to be done should only be done by highly experienced experts who are intending on the dogs working so having reason to be around stock and even with someone who knows exactly what they are doing I would`nt allow it to be done to my dogs, there is simply no reason to do it to any non stock-working pet dog , [ your point about dogs being around stock for other working reasons and with permission from the land owner noted by the way ].

I would rather do what`s right anyway - and that means keeping them on lead in the vicinity of stock. My three eldest [ collies ], have been temperament tested with sheep under the supervision of an expert, [ when I lived oop North in the heart of sheep country ], I know I don`t have to worry about them chasing sheep, but I am still not prepared to risk them getting shot by a trigger happy or worried farmer who does`nt know from a distance that they are sheep safe.

Accepted, thank you