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Malady
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07-06-2008, 10:36 PM
I think this might be a good place to stop quoting each other, (except if your dishing our raspberries of course !) and continue debating this in a nice way.............. I'll go first :

Benmcfuzzies : Camels jaws move side to side, yet they are not carnivores So could you explain the relevance of this theory that animals whom only have a vertical moving jaw cannot be omnivorous, as I too am a believer that dogs are indeed omnivores, especially as their back teeth are used to 'grind' bone, just like we have grindy teeth.
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Hali
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07-06-2008, 10:42 PM
Originally Posted by Patch View Post
Give us some tips for sorting the hypothetical one Hali, I beg you, pleeeeeze


well unless we can add that the hypothetical dog was a border collie who had been given food as a substitute for exercise/mental stimulation) and/or as answer for everything (bridery to get her to do anything, e.g. move off the furniture) and who it seems had never been on walks/socialised, my answers would be completely useless .
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Greyhawk
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07-06-2008, 11:11 PM
I must admit - I have skim read most of this as it seems to contain several pages of people argiung but there are a couple of points I would like to comment on.

Originally Posted by JoedeeUK View Post
Oh so you live with a pack of Malamutes ? Er a pack of two ??? I have friends with a slightly bigger pack of Mals-7 & like a real wolf pack they are all directly related & they are like any other multi dog household & they do have their own pack order, with the mother being the Alpha-no challenges for human world domination & a very balanced household.

I really do have to smile at people who live with the Husky type breeds & claim that they are "dominant"towards humans.
Unless I have missed certain posts, where do people state that Northern breeds are dominant towards people? I have mentioned that they do have their own pack heirarchy within themselves but that does not include humans. I personally do not subscribe to 'Alpha training' - I am more than happy to let my dogs eat before me (well I don't normally eat breakfast so they would be waiting rather a long time for theirs if that were the case ), they come up on the sofa for a cuddle (although admittedly they are not allowed upstairs and have to get off the sofa when asked) and I am also happy to let them walk through doors before me. They can be 'dominant' towards other dogs but not towards people.

Originally Posted by JoedeeUK View Post
IMHO many of those people who claim that only certain breeds are "dominant" breeds(ie dominant over other dogs)have a belief that dogs alpha roll each other.
I do believe certain breeds are more 'dominant' by nature than others, however I certainly do not believe in Alpha rolling and hate it when I hear this advice being given out. I often see people ask for help with certain issues such as puppy mouthing and people advise them to 'Alpha roll' the pup to teach it it's place

One of the main differences between Mals & Working GSDs is that whilst they both have very high prey drive, most Mals switch off their conditioning to obey once in pursuit, a badly trained Working GSD is just the same, which is why they have to be educated from day one. Neither make good first time dogs for new owners
I couldn't agree more with this statement.

Originally Posted by Patch View Post
I think a lot of people fall foul of trying to enforce a heirachy which is`nt what the dogs would naturally be comfortable with ie Fido was here first so he must be boss over the new dog` but Fido might not be willing or able to take that roll and then the human has created issues which often would never arise had they not interfered

In other words, the humans perceptions of pack order are often not in harmony with the dogs preferences of pack order,[ when there is one ], between themselves.
I think you have picked up on a very good point here Patch, often people can make situations worse by trying to enforce a certain heirarchy (normally by assuming the eldest must be at the top) which can then escalate problems between the dogs.

The only other thing I want to comment on that I picked up from this thread was the suggestion of using a muzzle on a 14 week old pup Please do not go down this route - your pup is only a baby and just needs consistent training so he learns what is and isn't acceptable
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Patch
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07-06-2008, 11:13 PM
Originally Posted by Steve Wishart View Post

from what I have gathered, is that people are put off the product because its tested on animals. They did so without any proof and they made a statement that so vehemently disagreed with mine, based on ethical grounds, that upto the point, I hadn't heard of. If it is indeed true, then I'll change my own dog's diet and wean him onto something else, however, I haven't heard anything that suggests the practice method of that product and I haven't had any negative experience with my own dog (or any other dog that I recommended* the owner to buy for)
Iams/Eukanuba recall as at least 10 dogs die of Kidney failure

I'm Stunned (Iams testing pet foods)

Iams... the suffering behind the 'science'


That to me is a bit unfair, I haven't tried to turn anybody's comments around and I haven't asked anyone for their qualifications/experience as I find it highly irrelevant.
So why did you feel the need to introduce yourself as you did and bring in doing the same course as two from Dog Borstal, [ like that would do you any favours ], and make a show of `paper credentials` as though that is all important ?
It may not have been your intent to do that but its how you are coming across and you can`t or won`t see it no matter how many people try to guide you on this aspect of how you are making yourself appear

Sadly, I don't appreciate the tone in which they are giving information and I don't like the fact that I am more often than not, arguing on this forum as opposed to learning.
So none of it is down to your tone from the word go ?
Its everyone else but never you ?
You don`t think perhaps you are being responded to `like for like` ?
The difference so far is that when you are responded to in the same manner as you come across, you get rude, start name calling, and have a tantrum. Yet those you are doing that to are still giving you the time of day. Think about it...

Yes I'm stubborn and I think some people here spend way too much up on their high horses that they think they have the immediate right to say "you're wrong" without backing it up.
Comments disagreeing with you are backed up, explanations of why your statements, [ whichever they may be ], are disagreed with have been given in detail - the contents which you consider `pedantic nitpicking` are actually discussion, views, and experiences which back up why another poster may disagree with something you have written.

But I also learn exceedingly quickly and I'm open minded enough to take on board things that I may not understand right away,
Have`nt seen much of that yet

but again, I don't appreciate in how a lot of the information is given and I rarely tolerate people so pedantic who are just trying to spoil for a fight, forcing their opinions down mine, and anyone who is reading, throat like some deranged Jehovah's witness hellbent on conforming everyone to their own thinking.
Its you who is doing that Steve, that`s the problem, you are treating us like clueless numpties, how many times does that need to be said before you realise it`s what you do whether you mean to or not

I simply started a thread as a helpful post and I have been insulted, made fun of and unfairly questioned for doing so. I know it was a discussion, but frankly, if this is how discussions on Dogsey takes place, then I'd rather find another forum to learn from as well as try and help on.

or maybe take some time to read articles and threads already on Dogsey so you can see that members here are not quite as dumb about dogs as you imply with your posts ? [ again, that may not be your intent but it`s what you have been doing nonetheless ].
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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07-06-2008, 11:15 PM
malady
Sorry - wrong way round
Carnivores jaws only move up and down - they slice meat
Sideways chewing is for veggies - camels, cows and stuff - and us omnivores
Dogs back teeth are pointy and if you watch them gnaw bones its nothing like us chewing veg - its slicing little bits off or crushing bits never grinding - they cant
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Malady
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07-06-2008, 11:19 PM
Originally Posted by Greyhawk View Post
Unless I have missed certain posts, where do people state that Northern breeds are dominant towards people? I have mentioned that they do have their own pack heirarchy within themselves but that does not include humans. I personally do not subscribe to 'Alpha training' - I am more than happy to let my dogs eat before me (well I don't normally eat breakfast so they would be waiting rather a long time for theirs if that were the case ), they come up on the sofa for a cuddle (although admittedly they are not allowed upstairs and have to get off the sofa when asked) and I am also happy to let them walk through doors before me. They can be 'dominant' towards other dogs but not towards people.

I think JodeeUK was referring to my posts Kirsty, although I agree, I dont subscribe to Alpha training, my dogs also go through doors before me, eat before me, and sleep on the sofa......... crikey, Seku even sneaks a cuddle with me on the bed in the mornings

I do believe certain breeds are more 'dominant' by nature than others, however I certainly do not believe in Alpha rolling and hate it when I hear this advice being given out. I often see people ask for help with certain issues such as puppy mouthing and people advise them to 'Alpha roll' the pup to teach it it's place
I agree, this kind of advice we have heard many times, and it's so sad AND dangerous that people actually do it ! Someone actually approached me walking the dogs one day and told ME that I should do it if my dogs were getting out of hand (they were playing)
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Malady
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07-06-2008, 11:25 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
malady
Sorry - wrong way round
Carnivores jaws only move up and down - they slice meat
Sideways chewing is for veggies - camels, cows and stuff - and us omnivores
Dogs back teeth are pointy and if you watch them gnaw bones its nothing like us chewing veg - its slicing little bits off or crushing bits never grinding - they cant
Did I get it the wrong way round, or did you ? I can't remember

Anyhow, I understand what you mean by that, as when you read most of the Raw diets they say you need to liquidise any veg, as a dog's digestion cannot break down the cell walls of the veg, so to me this could be a possible reason that they would not actively seek out vegetable matter for their diet anyway.

However, saying that, I think they would have still inadvertently maybe ingested veggie matter through eating smaller prey etc, and the faeces of veg eating animals and found some nutritional benefit from it. For that reason, when mine were RAW fed, they did get veg, but in such a small amount, it was just enough to simulate that they just ate the 'currants' previously belonging to a rabbit
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Patch
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07-06-2008, 11:44 PM
Originally Posted by Malady View Post
What can I say, the quotey thingeys don't always play the same game as me

I knew I could get more raspberries if I tried hard enough thank `ee for the new batch
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Patch
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07-06-2008, 11:48 PM
Originally Posted by Steve Wishart View Post
Again, too many condescending and patronising remarks put me off reading most of that thread. Especially seeing as I think your point in that thread was for me not to be condescending and patronising?....

I dunno, maybe I missed the original point.

If you had bothered to read the guidance I was trying to offer, perhaps you would have got the point however your response is exactly what I`m talking about. So much, [ yet again ], for you wanting to learn and being willing to listen
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Patch
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07-06-2008, 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by AliceandDogs View Post
I want to know how everyone would sort it out! I find it interesting the way people use different methods Maybe you could post it seperately Patch,
i would`nt dare, it might be taken as behaving g*d like

as poor hypothetical dog is getting drowned out here
And sinking fast I think
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