Sorry I'm not being rude, I've just been to hell and back over this dog and its driving me mad. There is a thread somewhere already on the forums about this dog if you want to talk about him. Or PM me.

I don't have an "attitude", so really there's no need for your tone towards me. You've asked questions, I have tried to answer and admitted that I couldn't explain it very well, hence needing to see it for yourself !

Take my word for it or don't, I don't need to convince anyone of what I see and experience within my breed, believe it or not, I don't really care, you have no evidence to suggest it doesn't exist, yet argue with my every reply, when you haven't experienced it yourself !

Not really. Everyone sees their dogs everyday in a home environment, which is very different to spending a few hours with a dog, when they can behave completely different 1 day to the next. You DO need to experience it, which is why many people with different breeds, recommend you meet breeders and as many dogs of that breed as possible to get an overall view and gain 'experience' of that breed, so you know what you're up against.

If it were simply a case of that's your opinion, and this is mine, there wouldn't be thousands of dogs in rescues, because owners of "difficult" breeds couldnt cope with their breed traits ! Breed traits are what they are, they are set out, they are not one person's opinion, which happens to be wrong !

Nobody said that repetitive behaviour is dominant, you have misconstrued what I said.

If you don't want to believe it exists, that's your opinion, but don't label those that have experienced it, as liars.

You've asked your questions, I have answered, and you are not happy with the answers, if you're already convinced that you know the answer, why bother asking at all ?

We'll leave it there, as I know what I experience in a home, everyday environment with my dogs and within the breed, and you know what you think.

I would like to apologise to anyone who has taken offence or misinterpreted what I have said. I am not trying to say I am right about all of this, experience is a big key and something I have little of (please dont rub it in, imagine if you couldnt have your dog with you!)... Re Malady - that whole post was not aimed at you.

The reason I asked about dominance theory is because I just wanted to see peoples opinions and conflictinf ideas... obviously my own conflicting ideas raised some hackles as well as my own. And I apologise if anyone has become annoyed.
I do feel however, since joining, that because I dont currently OWN a dog, some members feel I dont know what I am talking about or have been a little hostile in their replies. I dont feel it is necessary. We all learn every day.

Any more opinions are welcome.

I have been following this thread and to be honest with you most of the people who are putting posts on here in my opinion have no idea what they are talking about as they don't have a pack of dogs in there homes.

Let me give you an example of what I mean. In this house Ruby is the alpha (top) dog as she rules the rest of them with an iron paw. One bark or growl from her and the rest full into place. But Onyx is the dominant dog because he is the pack protector and unless I keep him in place within the pack he could become very forceful with the others.

What I have found while reading the thread is that most of the people cannot or are unable to decipher between the two. Alpha and dominant!

The only reason I have not put a post on this thread up to yet is because I am so fed up of people saying that dogs can become dominant with their owners. This in my opinion is has nothing to do with dominance but is more to do with a lack of respect on the dogs part. For as much as I love all mine to death, they also know that I am the boss in this household so they do as I say or they will get sent to their bed if they do something they shouldn’t.

I know a lot of people won’t agree with the way I treat my lot, but I treat them all as children and everyday for them is a learning day. Now that’s not just a case of learning in the way of training, but also in trust.

How many times have you read on the forum about people not knowing the very basics of how to lead walk a dog, or what to do when a certain situation arises? So if the owner can’t deal with a problem, how can a dog trust their owner?

That me explain it to you another way. All of my dogs can walk around any park or field and are quiet content in their own knowledge that if trouble of any sort arises then they return straight back to me, as I’m the pack leader. So that to me means that they are looking for my help and not the other way around.

Another example of them knowing that I’m the pack leader is that when we are all out and they are off lead, and the moment I stop walking they all come back to me to see why I have stopped walking and just sit or lay down around me.

Yes I do have breeds that could do a lot of damage to another dog or a person, but properly trained means that they look to me as they trust me as the pack leader.

Colin, I agree with what you say about trust and respect etc.

If I am interpreting you correctly (tell me if I am wrong) then you are saying your dogs see you as their leader but you are not 'dominant' towards them. You provide them with protection etc and they realise that?
If thats what your saying then I agree with you.

I dont have a pack of dogs in my home but I can agree with your views.

I don't think I have been hostile and that was never my intention, I also don't think that it's because you don't currently own a dog, owning one dog is nothing like owning say 4 or 5
I agree with Colin and I don't do dominance but I do leadership and create balance.

I did say 'some' Trouble And I just feel that even though I have actually been agreeing with most of you but by also giving my opinion... people have jumped down my throat. Maybe I havnt been explaining myself very well?! I dont know. Like wit hthe cocker(and at risk of going back on that subject) i was agreeing with your views but it felt like you were telling me i was wrong :S Sorry if you werent!


Basically!!!!! I feel that we shouldnt need to 'dominate' our dogs but instead win their trust and respect by being calm. Also ensuring that the dog knows what is expected and not giving out mixed messages or inhibiting the dog from doing what its particualr breed is naturally good at. I understand that people disagree and use different methods that work and I respect that. Just to clear up any confusion!

Yep, I agree with that

Definitely
There are always dogs who`s drive to want to do their breeds `job` is very strong but the owner has neither the ability or resources or whatever to enable the dog to do that job, but rather than try to extinguish the dogs drive I believe it should be redirected which is where agility or flyball etc can be so beneficial as the dog can get to `work` [ from the dogs POV as it were ], so not get stressed or obsessive through frustration from lack of learning and application.

I can understand that you may have felt a bit frustrated during the thread, I hope I have`nt added to that in my responses
I took the premise of the thread to be about humans dominating dogs by applying the much misunderstood old dominance theory, and I know I responded re the Cocker but my responses there would apply very generally to any dog in a similar sounding situation, [ and I can understand your frustration about him too maybe print out any responses for your father to read to see if it helps him realise he has been given some dreadful advice and will never achieve a good relationship with the dog nor will help the dog learn what he wants from him if he continues doing what he`s doing ? ].

Thanks Patch, I'm glad I have finally made myself clear.

I didnt want to go off on a tangent about the Cocker because I so desperately want to take him on but my dad wont let me and I dont have the facilities and its just upsetting me. Trust me, I can say what I like to my dad and it wont make the blindest bit of difference!

You are right though, the thread was meant to be about humans dominating their dogs. Not about large inter-pack relations so it applies whether we have 1 dog or 25!! Which I think is where it all went a bit fuzzy round the edges. Or am I just getting myself in trouble again. Sigh!!



Oh and I was just looking back at a previous post re putting crated dogs on top of otehr crated dogs. This could be something dominance and height related yes but isnt there also the possibility that the dog underneath is feeling a little scared and threatened by having a dog above it with no way of knowing what that dog might do and no way of escaping from it and so try to defend itself? I think I would be terrified. But then if that same dog is on top then it can see what the dogs below are to and its less likely to feel it may come down on it at any time. Not seen this in action but have seen similar things relating to humans coming down on defensive dogs from above so its just an idea.

No, we're talking about dogs that know and socialise with eachother well regularly, because they live together, not about stranger dogs.

As for you being without a dog, I myself wasn't aware of that, I was only answering on my own experience