They are enjoyable & he is under control!Thank you so much for your concern! so kind, But not from your way of thinking! thank god!!!!! He works Champiuonship Obedience & is representing Wales at Crufts this year in obedience! there are more ways to control a dog than to stick it on a lead!!!! He thinks his lead is his toy! thats what ive taught him to do.

So no he cant walk calmley on a lead, he can do advanced HW though with no commands at all paces.

Also a large part of our walks are off the lead,so he can enjoy himself & be a dog, with his 100% recall & instant down, Soooooo badley behaved im soooo embarresed to take him out.

My god he jumps about & barks & pulls me because he is excited! perhaps i should punish him...tssst...zap...strangle.... for being so expressive & happy!!!! Poor boy!!!! im sure you do pity him too hes so stressed!!!

I`m trying to say that those of us who have worked with severe cases equivalent to those Milan has on his programs, [ those termed as `red zoners` ], have the hands on experience in that level of rehab to see what is so wrong with what Milan does. It shows through the eyes and demeanours of the dogs, its easily recognisable to those who have seen it in dogs of bad mental state causing them to behave in extreme ways, that treating those dogs the CM way is nor appropriate nor gives the dogs the long term rehab that is really needed, not the `quick fix` foolishness.

He also ignores the possibilities of medical or dietry issues being involved, and uses his methods on some dogs which I`m sure don`t need a trainer, they just need treatment from a vet.

Of how many aggressive dogs which he hisses and nips at or rolls and pins has he said ` lets get a full blood work-up to check thyroid levels` , or ` could this dog have a food allergy which is causing te dog problems, or lets make sure this dog does`nt have a physical problem causing pain which the dog is defensively protective of because its been ignored or noticed by the owner ?

Er - have you ever read the adoption form of a good rescue

You must therefore reject rescues as neutering is high priority.

You won`t need to get a list of good rescues then, so you may as well just take pot luck at a pound.

How many have you owned ? I though Hal was a Husky cross. Or am I thinking of a different dog as Hal sired a litter :smt017
Sorry, I digress, the point being having one dog of one breed or crossbreed does not an expert make.

Regarding rescues not telling you how to train a dog adopted from them : Yes they can tell you that if you sign the adoption, rescues retain final ownership of the dogs, adopters are guardians.

If I were to ever put a choker or e-collar or prong on my adopted dogs, [ which would never happen, this is for example only ], they would be reclaimed before you could say `chink the chain` or `press that zapper remote` and their rescue orgs would have every right to take them off me for it as its part of the adoption agreements that such things must never be used on them.

Still, as I said, as you won`t agree to ethical breeders neuter endorsements, or to adhere to how not to treat a vulnerable rescue dog, [ as you specified an `otherwise unhomeable` ], there are always the pounds you can go to, the sort which don`t home check or do temperament assessments or do anything else so long as you hand over a few quid and leave with a dog in tow.

Not at all :smt001 I`m more than happy to see people using a variety of methods. Just not the ones based on incorrect theories, ignorance, and cruelty.

Wolves do not pin - unless its with intent to kill. Watch another wolf program so you can see a subordinate offers submission, an alpha does`nt need to take it
Also, nipping with fingers by humans is not something which fool a dog into thinking that human is an alpha wolf, dogs are just not that thick
Never heard a wolf or a dog hiss either - not from the front end anyway :smt005

Please find anywhere that I have said its ok to let a dog be aggressive !
I think you`ll find I believe in rehab and training and working with the dogs, not just standing back and letting them get on with causing injury or death, be it to a child, a dog, a rabbit, or anything else.

Its called the world of TV, its about glitz and fakery. `Illegal immigrant gets the American Dream`, that`s what its about really.

No, dogs are not humans, and dogs know humans are not dogs, and nor are domesticated dogs wild wolves in disguise waiting to reap havoc on all living things in a bid for world domination

One of mine would have been described a double red zoner, never mind `just` aggressive, he was out and out violence on legs when he first arrived. Two of my others are also ex-biters.

Like my ex biter who is now as safe with children as any `normal` dog and who all my agility handlers regularly train with because he loves to play and interact with people, a dog who can go from meeting a complete stranger to more than happily doing an agility course with them 30 seconds later ?

Organisations rescued them except one ex-biter whom I adopted privately.
One will never fully trust humans he does`nt know, [ until he is introduced to them ], and he has every right to be wary, [ how many sickeningly and horrifically abused deaf and partially sighted aggressive dogs has CM worked with - try hissing and prodding at a deaf dog and see how far that gets anyone ].
My other ex-biters ?
Given that they go to companion shows and agility shows and other places where there are hundreds if not thousands of people around them which my dogs don`t feel the need to bite I`d say they do pretty well, yep
[ Use of the term ex-biters being the big hint there ]


Yes everyone is entitled to an opinion - myself included

That`s Border - sorry, it just bugs me when people don`t correctly spell the names of the breeds they have owned, [ sorry to be pedantic, its just one of those fingernails down a blackboard things to me ]

[ edited to add I tend to respond to posts as I get to them, not by reading several pages ahead to see if they have been covered, sorry to have gone over the point again when it had already been responded to as I saw when reading further on the thread, doh ! ]

So all you people who thing CM is bad, show me proof of dogs that he has "ruined, scared or terrified" and that these dogs have been permanently scarred by him?

Its just your opinion, you dont like him, period! I cant stand the messing with dogs these days, I think its because of the way dogs are treated they are completely alien to the animals that could roam in packs all day, latch key dogs, that NEVER attacked children, adults or other animals! Oh doesnt CM have a pack of dogs like that!
Dawn.

Just watch his programs Dawn, terrified eyes and postures are in abundance
As for how badly scarred they are as a result, he does`nt do follow-ups some time later so the ones fixed with a `temporary quick-fix plaster` tend not to be seen again when the `plaster` falls off, however any of us who have dealt with such dogs have seen it time and time again with our own eyes with dogs which have not had proper re-hab handling offered to them.
Watch his programs with the sound turned down, really concentrate on what the dogs are conveying.

Its many peoples opinions, including people with far more knowledge in their discarded fingernails than CM will ever have.

Dawn, you keep saying that but without actually explaining what you consider to be `messing about`. You gave an example of someone misusing a clicker because of a `behavioursist` who did`nt seem to understand the application so after months of clicking the result was something problematic. That`s not what properly done clicker training is about, it does`nt take months to shape a behaviour with a clicker at all, minutes more like

The clicker is simply to remove the inconsistant tones humans use, so the dog has a marker for doing something right which they can recognise easily and is always done the same way every time. A clicker in other words replaces the human `good dog` praise and all the different ways its gets said, thats all.
Do you never tell your dogs they have done good ?
If you do and you do it vocally then really you are `pfaffing` more than a clicker user

Dawn, the fact that they don`t get to roam in packs is because society says so for all sorts of sensible reasons, so treating dogs like they are wild pack roamers when they live in homes, mostly in solo dog homes at that, is just not realistic. Dogs need to learn boundaries like not eating people who visit and not peeing on the carpet, not how to meet up with fifty other dogs for a free roaming walkabout around town.

Hey boarderdawn don't even bother with this forum you will get NOWHERE but called a crazy person by some hardheaded individuals, some people seem to think Caesar never does follow ups and that he is STILL an Illegal immigrant and likes to watch his show with the volume down....just look at thier faces and the eyes...comeon are you serious?....really know nothing about him or his techniques or read his book. OR they would know he does always do follow ups, rent the dvd season2 and he goes back to the families from season 1. By the way I am a proud American living the American Dream to the treki,i am not sure why you are bringing Americas immigration issues to a dog forum? Whatever you do Borderdawn don't write back this is the neverending post of whos right and whos wrong run run run far away oh god i now need a tylenol

I agree its society but do you really think if we all let out dogs out as we once did, they would behave as they used to? Not a chance Patch, they are so far removed in a lot of cases from what dogs used to be its ridiculous and its people that have done it, IMO by treating them as "babies" thats faffing!!

Whatever you say CM, DOES have a large group of dogs consisting of Pit Bulls (ex fighters some) GSD's, malinois, crossbreed, Chihuahua's and every other concievable breed, all living together without issue. Now you cannot take that away from him, NONE of those dogs are in any way scared of him nor appear in anyway unhappy. I say again, Id like to see some of these so called "experts" do the same!

Just today we were invited to a talk by a respected well known "behaviourist" to see how her methods worked wonders on dogs, and yes, all the dogs she will "treat" will be of her choosing, hahahahaha!!!! How great is that!

A note on the use of a clicker.
We haven't really been inclined to use a clicker before, but with young Cosmo thought we'd give it a go. Now, having used it with him, I would say i don't use it for everything, but when I am teaching a new command, it is amazing. I thought I would play around with teaching him to retrive a set of keys the other day (he's 15 weeks) within 5 minutes he had it... When I first put them on the floor and he went to them and I clicked and rewarded, he looked at me....second time he looked at me with an 'ohhhhhhhhh I get what you want me to do' (at this point all I wanted was for him to go to them...) next time he went to them he pawed them and he flew on from there. He is still learning this, don't get me wrong, BUT within 5 minutes he was fetching a set of keys to my hand. Not bad for a 15 week old pup that had never picked up anything metal before.
I am a convert to the use of a clicker as it can mark a specific behaviour at a specific moment and much as I hate to be one of these people that says 'until you've tried it and seen it you can't know' in this case, it's true, I was a bit anti clicker to be honest, didn't see the point...BUT it's brill. As I say, wouldn't use it for everything but..


Okaty sorry to digress, just wnated to throw that in about clickers.... ; )

You can all carry on now!