Proof please.

They are Vermin, they spread disease.

Badgers are not Vermin, they do require control though which is why another cull is being talked about.

Not all dogs kill cleanly and quickly. Tai, and Hal before him, catches rabbits but invariably will eat them alive. It is horrible. Usually he is not far away from me, and I can quickly grab the poor rabbit and put it out of its misery, but occasionally he has dived into the hedge or into the crop and I can't get to him quickly. Hal was the same. I used to go hunting myself, my grandfather was a joint master of foxhounds and I come from a background of hunting, fishing and shooting. I am dead against fox hunting. Firstly, I do not believe that foxes are vermin, secondly, I consider the killing of foxes by hounds to be anything but quick and merciful (although I do concede that on the whole only old, sick or injured foxes are taken - the healthy ones get away) and thirdly, I consider that it is a tad hypcritical to lecture to third world African countries about not shooting elephant for ivory, or lions for their skins, when we hunt and kill foxes with hounds. I loved fox hunting when I was younger, there was no better sight or sound than hounds in full cry across the glorious green fields of England. The thrill of riding to hounds was amazing; it was so primieval, the blood lust, you really wanted hounds to kill, you inwardly groaned when Charlie got away. Luckily for me, I was never a very good rider, and because I rarely jumped anything, was never anywhere near the kill. I always assumed that hounds killed cleanly and quickly. They do not, the fox is torn apart, admittedly quickly, but nonetheless the kill is not clean. I had the misfortune of seeing a kill once, funnily enough when I was foot following, not riding, and it put me off fox hunting for ever.

You may call me hypocritical because I allow my dogs to chase rabbits. I do so purely because I consider it to be NATURAL. The rabbit is a herbivore, and as such is on the menu for canids. The fox is an omnivore, and is definitely not on the menu of canids. The rabbit is not an indigenous species to these islands, and very definitely needs to be rigorously controlled. There are far too many around these parts. Thankfully, we have a good and very healthy fox population. I have never seen a mangy fox in the 21 years I have lived here ... including the very aged but healthy looking old dog fox that Hal tried to play with many years ago in his youth! We also have a large badger sett at the bottom of our field with an equally healthy family of badgers. Foxes regularly come into our garden at night and have got used to the security lights that they set off with their movements. If we can avoid the squeaky floorboards in our bedroom, we can peek at them through the open bedroom window, and although we have no way of knowing whether they are the same foxes each time, they always seem to be pretty healthy.

My personal opinion is that there is an awful lot of tosh spoken about both foxes and badgers in an attempt to justify their slaughter under the guise of their being "vermin" ... something I do not accept.

My father's word good enough proof for you? He is now 89 years old, fought in the last war, a real old soldier ... and incidentally, VERY pro fox hunting unfortunately. As a boy, he knew of a local who had a fox cross dog - I believe they are known as a Dox? It was a male, and was semi-feral apparently. Also a friend of mine who now lives in Devon told me of one she knew of. Vulpes and Canid are very closely related species.

I do not accept that foxes spread disease, not do I accept that badgers need to be controlled. Why? It is man who needs to be culled, not badgers and not foxes.

Of course you are better qualified to speak about fox hunting than I!
Which is why im waiting for pro hunting arguments to do with hunting with hounds!
And asking you not to introduce, as 'evidence' for the need to hunt with hounds, extraneous irrelevant points, such as the shooting ability of farmers, the causes of mange, and the habitat of a far away land, especially one that wasnt even mentioned!

Like i said, this isnt an anti fox hunting post, its an anti bogus arguement post.
the one

Sorry, and no disrespect to your father, but no, his word isnt good enough, I dont know him and there has NEVER been any substantiated and verified evidence of a Fox successfully breeding with a dog. There are now many people who keep dogs AND Foxes as pets, never mated though. I actually did this myself some years ago, I had a vixen for some mths, aswell as 2 entire male dogs, no breeding though! I also worked at a stables where this animal lived for 2 yrs with several collies, male and female and 2 male GSD's and a Corgi male, still no breeding, she did breed however with a Fox and bought her offspring to the stables some 7mths after "leaving" the home she gradually left.

Again, proof needed as nobody else on the planet has seen this.

Yes youre right, send the Badgers out to work! Man can then sit back in fewer numbers and enjoy retirement!

PLEASE! Do you know the biggest spreader of Sarcoptic mange is the Fox? Fox mange mites transfer to Dogs. Of course this is also a Zoonosis, (scabies is a type of sarcoptic mange) so people are at risk too, the more there are uncontrolled and the more mangey ones there are in public spaces, the bigger the risk. Ask your Vet about the increase in recent years, I was astonished, but it does explain about the massive increase in flea/mite controllers we see now. This really is pretty basic knowledge, it amazes me you didnt know.

Badgers are known to spread Bovine Tuberculosis, obviously this doesnt require any explanation as its clear what the disease does. Its interesting that "some" animal welfare groups dont subscribe to the fact they spread it so far, but ALL of them test for TB before they release! Since the ban on Badger hunting, the numbers have recovered to massive numbers and many authorities are now considering another cull as numbers are so high in places, the environment in which they live can no longer support them. farmers of course, livestock ones, for the most part, do not want them on their land either.

I am very anti hunting.
Sadly the new game in cities is hunting the foxes, often with dogs that were never intened to do it. Our local 'park' is next to a field and very close to woodland with lots of foxes etc in. I spotted signs on the fence the other day, aimed at such fox hunters, telling them they were being watched by people in the local houses. So very,very sad.

Dawn : you need to do better than that. How on earth can I prove that back in the 20's my father knew of a Dox? That is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard you make! My friend in Devon too cannot prove it. Seeing as she left these parts to move to Devon about 15 years ago, I would think this Dox would be dead as well. Just because your vixen did not mate with your dogs does not mean or prove that it cannot happen. It must be extremely rare because I have lived in the countryside for 56 years and I have only ever known of 2 beyond all reasonable doubt, one of which would have died around 75 years ago, and the other around 10 years ago. Next time I am speaking to my friend I will have to ask her to tell me the whole story again, because it could be the person who had the Dox is still around and I can talk to them about it.

As to the rest of your post, it is clear that you are arrogant enough to think that Man has the right to play God and manipulate his environment to suit himself. I happen to disagree with this view as the current situation that the world finds itself in re global warming proves that the most deadly, vicious, selfish and frankly stupid species to ever walk God's earth is homo sapiens. I am no bunny hugger, I eat meat and I am more than capable of killing an animal to feed my family, but I think the days are rapidly disappearing when it becomes acceptable to kill for pleasure, and to destroy our environment and the wildlife that depends upon it to suit ourselves ... to build more houses, roads and thus ruin for ever our precious and ever-diminishing countryside.

I know all too well about mange. My daughter's cat got mange, funnily enough only one, the other one was completely free of it which bewildered and confused our vet. It was the very devil to get rid of, I had to fumigate the bedroom which is the only room in the house with a carpet, strip all the linen and curtains, and leave the room closed for weeks before we hopefully managed to get rid of the mites and eggs. I caught mange too and I have never itched so much in all my life, it was horrendous and kept me awake most of the night. We think the cat caught mange from the hamster, as my daughter's cats are house cats, but I take your point about foxes having mange, of course they do, but I happen to think that this does not give us the right to slaughter them, or badgers because they spread TB. I am fully aware of the facts, and it does look as if indeed badgers do spread TB. I still do not consider this gives us the right to cull this beautiful creature. I have many farmer friends with opposing view - most want to cull the badgers, and I suspect at least some of them do - but one or two blame modern farming practices with the overuse of AB's, and the confining of dairy cattle to the byre instead of turning them out to graze and bringing them in twice a day to milk. The farmer we used to live next door when I was a child would regularly move his cows from field to field to not only allow the pasture to rest, but to reduce the incidence of disease, including TB.

As for the huge increase in parasites on our pets, this is due to the vast majority of homes being centrally heated and carpeted. When we got Hal, we ripped up all the carpets except on the stairs and in one of the spare bedrooms. He hardly ever got fleas and when he did, we just bathed him in Vetzyme flea shampoo and that was the end of the problem. We used to do this I suppose about 4 times a year. He did get ticks when we stayed in Cumbria, badly, but we removed them all by killing them with tea tree oil. He never got mange, and neither has Tai, despite the fact that foxes come in our garden regularly. Whereas I completely agree that foxes carry mange, I do not agree that they are responsible for the vast increase in fleas and mites. This is almost exclusively down to the heated, carpeted and double-glazed homes that most of us now live in.

Very sad Ramble. Just goes to prove my point that it is US who need culling, not foxes and badgers ! We pollute our beautiful planet, kill for pleasure, waste and destroy what is irreplaceable ... there was a lovely poem I used to know which I cannot for the life of me find on the internet, but it went something along these lines :

"Hi handsome hunting man, put away your gun.
something, something, something, something
Now the animal is dead and done.
Never more to creep again, peep or weep again.
O what fun !! "

There are many lines missing I am sure, but I remember when I read this as a young girl in my 20's I suppose I must have been, it affected me deeply.

I wish I could find it ... I believe it was written by Walter de la Mare, but I am not absolutely sure about it.

It really summed up man's nature to a T.

Shocking

I am surrounded by ''ban the ban' stickers living in Oxfordshire. Some of whom I work with

I have always been able to see both sides of the argument and as such technically sit on the fence BUT I DO NOT agree with the whole la di da 'chase' of it all (i.e. it being a sport and 'chasing' the animal to it's death) and I am still unconvinced about the argument for culling foxes.

From an animal rights perspective whilst I shudder at the thought of the chase then kill aspect I have also seen some terrible images of foxes being caught up in snares and not shot properly, thus making death much more painful for them.

Sorry, I need to prove nothing its you that is saying it occured not me, I cannot find ANY evidence that it ever has, neither can you! I dont need to do anything Gnasher, Im not the one claiming that its possible when there is NOTHING to back up the claims am I?

No pictures? No "evidence?" No "stories etc? thought not, do me a favour!


Rare indeed, nobody else on the planet knows about them, yet you know of two, AMAZING!!!

Arrogant perhaps, realistic indeed.


|Gosh if I felt lie that Id of killed myself by now!

yet you allow your PETS to catch and kill wildlife, of yes thats "natural" isnt it, my word Gnasher, hypocrite springs to mind MASSIVELY here!

Just as well that those that understand better can still manage things then..

Thats great, I dont know of any farmer that would confine Dairy cattle, must be different with the "farmers" you knew.

Gosh you could make a fortune claiming that, must be the best one Ive heard!

I have central heating, I have carpets, I have 4 dogs and 6 Cats, no fleas or mites though!! That includes the Terriers that work regularly too! Dont forget mange mite usually affect only the dogs with weakened immune systems, dogs can be bitten by mange mites but not develop the mange, likewise with demodex mites which dogs are near born with.