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smokeybear
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27-07-2011, 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
There's no substitute for research, but in the real world a great many owners find price and location to be the main considerations.

Of course, in high unemployment/low income areas it is a vital consideration for many. Unfortunately, it's usually these areas where choice of trainer is limited
And they key phrase here is "in the real world".

This is what sorts the sheep from the goats with dog trainers, ie those who live in the real world and have to work with owners who live in the real world v best practice according to the theory.

In the real world money, time, and other resources are at a premium.

You may, as a dog trainer, prefer Method A, however if you know that this method is not feasible (for various reasons) for the owner then, if we look at what is in the DOG'S BEST INTERESTS you may have to use Method B.

You have to ADAPT to suit the individual dog, owner(s) environment and that is where there is no substitute for EXPERIENCE.
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Lotsadogs
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27-07-2011, 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
although I dont see a problem with the odd ah-haa or whatever I just use the challange of trying to train with none of those, because if I am trying to train people to train their dogs then really I should be training to a higher standard

It does require more thinking about how to stop something you dont like

I find a positive interuptor very useful for unwanted behaviours that have to be stopped now - so I use a kissy noise instead of Ah-haa - you cant make that sound angry - and all it means is drop everything and get over to me right now something fab is about to happen

Of course you have to spend time rewarding good behaviours too so they dont learn to do bad things to get your attention

teaching a solid 'leave it' is good too - but also rewarding while they are leaving it so you dont get a behaviour chain of them running back too it

you can also teach a default leave it to objects even when you are not there - I have posted kikopups youtube vid on that up a few times - and she has a great counter surfing video too

counter conditioning different responses is good too - every time Mia barks at the window I ask her to go into her crate (her fave trick cos she gets her dinner in there) its not a punishment - after a while it becomes a default - when she sees something she wants to bark at she runs into her crate to alert me instead

and of course managing the environment so they dont get to practise bad behaviours while you are not looking

My major problem with a ahh-haa is it may stop what they are doing at that moment in time but most often it hasnt actually taught the dog anything

It would be pretty stressfull to start a new job and the boss didnt tell you what he wanted you to do but just told you when you had done something he didnt want
I agree about it being stressfull not being told what to do....... Totally. That is why my dogs are told what to do. So they don't have to work it out themselves. Their brain power is saved for doing things that they really enjoy instead.

So can I ask, You and Wys who seem to want to use no a-ha's or anything else negative......

You notice your puppy chewing through an electrical cable, what do you do?
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Lotsadogs
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27-07-2011, 12:56 PM
Originally Posted by JoedeeUK View Post
using the misguided belief that in a domestic "dog pack"there needs to a a leader(AKA Alpha), in reality unless all the dogs that live in a household group that is closely related(parents/mother & offspring)they do not comprise a pack & any "leadership"will be subject to change as the members of the group change, in a pack(as in wolf/wild dog)the "leaders" are the parents & when they die the pack breaks up meaning there is never any change in leadership in a pack.
I totally respect your view and experiences, but can I ask how many dog packs you have personally observed in action? Denise Mcleod
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Lotsadogs
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27-07-2011, 12:56 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
And they key phrase here is "in the real world".

This is what sorts the sheep from the goats with dog trainers, ie those who live in the real world and have to work with owners who live in the real world v best practice according to the theory.

In the real world money, time, and other resources are at a premium.

You may, as a dog trainer, prefer Method A, however if you know that this method is not feasible (for various reasons) for the owner then, if we look at what is in the DOG'S BEST INTERESTS you may have to use Method B.

You have to ADAPT to suit the individual dog, owner(s) environment and that is where there is no substitute for EXPERIENCE.
Agree entirely.
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Chris
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27-07-2011, 01:02 PM
Originally Posted by smokeybear View Post
And they key phrase here is "in the real world".

This is what sorts the sheep from the goats with dog trainers, ie those who live in the real world and have to work with owners who live in the real world v best practice according to the theory.

In the real world money, time, and other resources are at a premium.

You may, as a dog trainer, prefer Method A, however if you know that this method is not feasible (for various reasons) for the owner then, if we look at what is in the DOG'S BEST INTERESTS you may have to use Method B.

You have to ADAPT to suit the individual dog, owner(s) environment and that is where there is no substitute for EXPERIENCE.
Sorry, I wasn't very clear, I meant owner researching into the best dog trainer for them in the area

I fully agree that adaptation is the key when it comes to a good trainer vs a not so good, but adaptation doesn't mean resorting to yanking, jerking, pushing, pulling and all the other physically aversive means of controlling.
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smokeybear
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27-07-2011, 01:05 PM
Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
Sorry, I wasn't very clear, I meant owner researching into the best dog trainer for them in the area

I fully agree that adaptation is the key when it comes to a good trainer vs a not so good, but adaptation doesn't mean resorting to yanking, jerking, pushing, pulling and all the other physically aversive means of controlling.
I quite agree. But as you said, cost is a major factor in ANY decision making process for the majority of people
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waggytail
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27-07-2011, 01:26 PM
Thank you for all these interesting responses!

I feel we have gone a little off track however? I think we all agree that (to a point?) all methods have varing degrees and to some extent many are acceptable so long as a dog is being treated fairly and not being trained through fear, anger or frustration.

My original point was:
Just as when CM's methods were being regulary promoted through the media, now with the pushing of VS and other "positive" trainers are we facing the same confusion and potential risks?

Example 1: Owner tries "Alpha roll" after seeing it on TV, Dog gets stressed, trust compromised-bites owner.

Example 2: Owner reads article about positive training, worried that any jerking of lead or verbal correction is deemed cruel therefore when the dog lunges out or pulls and food is not a big enough motivator they lose control- dog pulls owner into road

Example 3. Why we need a "Balanced approach"
Reading an article explaining Sound aversion an owner hides behind a bush and uses a water spray to train the dog to stay away from the vegetable patch- This is a method/product now deemed unacceptable however used correctly it is a good training tool, harmless to the dog and very effective.

I'm pleased to hear that other magazines cover more widely however it does seem that we often only get one sided views.

I visited VS website yesterday as I was interested that Channel 11 is re-running a lot of her shows which still feature "Aversion methods". VS is very keen to express that she no longer uses these techniques..??? I always felt the methods she chose were the " more accepted" ones? Whats wrong with a few "Ah-Ahs" or Cans of Air?

In her more recent shows I see her being yanked around by dogs and letting them get away with all kinds of inappropiate behaviours. I feel it seems she so badly wants to praise the dog that it doesn't matter what the dog is doing?

This IS dangerous. it is equally wrong to praise/soothe inappriopiate behaviour as it is to bully/force acceptable behaviour. Also to be "too soft" on inappropiate behaviours can build tolerance in your dog so that by the time you really mean it you have to resort to stronger methods in order to get the effect....The word again...Balance
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waggytail
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27-07-2011, 01:41 PM
A quick word on "physical corrections".... yanking, pushing, poking etc

This should always be a method for "getting the dogs attention" NEVER to hurt the dog.

I always liken this to getting a persons attention in a noisy or crowded place: the dog is distracted or he is faced with a strong impulse/temptation, therefore You have to be "punchy" enough to cut through this. The correct technique should put a dog "off balance" rather than to push him over or drag him along.

Equally as important..As soon as the dog responds to you, keep them with you using high value praise/rewards.

It often makes me wonder but people seem perfectly happy to see a dog pulling its owner down the street, straining on the lead, choking and spluttering. but if they see the owner jerk the dog so much as once they would say this was being cruel?
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sarah1983
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27-07-2011, 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs View Post
So how come all the dogs that I have owned (except the rescue who has not long been with me) do longer raid the bin? Luck do you think? Coincidence perhaps? I think the proof of any method lies in its results! And the happiness of the dog.
I would guess at at least partly luck to be perfectly honest Denise. That method stops most dogs from doing it when somebody is around but a hell of a lot of dogs still do it when it's safe (ie nobody there). About half the people I know who have dogs have a problem with their dog going in the bin or taking food off counters. No amount of shouting at or smacking the dog has stopped them. Not even when the punishment is delivered while the dog is in the act. Rupert only stopped this behaviour after pulling a cupboard down on himself which scared him so badly that he hid under the bed for the rest of the day.

It's an issue that, imo, is much easier to manage than to train out if you've got a dog that learns only to do it when you're not there. I'm all in favour of picking my battles though and this isn't high on my list
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Meg
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27-07-2011, 01:59 PM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
A quick word on "physical corrections".... yanking, pushing, poking etc

This should always be a method for "getting the dogs attention" NEVER to hurt the dog.

I always liken this to getting a persons attention in a noisy or crowded place: the dog is distracted or he is faced with a strong impulse/temptation, therefore You have to be "punchy" enough to cut through this. The correct technique should put a dog "off balance" rather than to push him over or drag him along.

Equally as important..As soon as the dog responds to you, keep them with you using high value praise/rewards.

It often makes me wonder but people seem perfectly happy to see a dog pulling its owner down the street, straining on the lead, choking and spluttering. but if they see the owner jerk the dog so much as once they would say this was being cruel?
Oh dear, this sounds like Cesar Millan mark 2
We have all heard the euphemisms for yanking, pushing, poking etc like 'getting
the dogs attention'....
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