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View Poll Results: Is CM improving as a TV trainer & offering more apt advice
Yes 45 52.33%
No 41 47.67%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details.



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Boxer Boy
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15-03-2009, 10:29 PM
I have just read the article Wysiwyg advised me to read and am beginning to understand earlier comments about these discussions always ending in tears.

I was not overly impressed with the article, thinking it could have been ripped straight from one of our dodgy red top tabloids, not exactly the objective critique the subject warrants. It appears there are very entrenched differing opinions about this guy. Personally I have always adopted a Pick and Mix approach to teaching my dogs.

I retain my mixed views of CM, however I wouldn't want to engage in a tear fest in my first week on this excellent forum, so I humbly retreat to the spectators enclosure.
Harry21
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15-03-2009, 10:43 PM
I just in meant general. I read a lot of dog training information from websites/forums. And most people I know have had dogs at some point.
ClaireandDaisy
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15-03-2009, 10:49 PM
Originally Posted by Harry21 View Post
I just in meant general. I read a lot of dog training information from websites/forums. And most people I know have had dogs at some point.
Then if by most people you mean the ones you know perhaps you could enlarge your experience and try Positive training and clicker training and NILIF and similar methods advocated by our current top trainers who don`t use coercive methods and still manage to get Obedience, agility and HTM champions.
Luke
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15-03-2009, 10:50 PM
Always liked him, he treats dogs like dogs and I really like his views and the general ethos in regards to balanced dogs.
Wysiwyg
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15-03-2009, 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by Harry21 View Post
I'd expect a lot of trainers or behaviourists to attack his methods since his success, so no suprise there.
See here
http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm

AREN'T CRITICS JUST JEALOUS OF HIS SUCCESS?

Many of the professionals who have spoken out against the show are immensely successful in their own right. They have the respect of their colleagues, are professors at universities and popular speakers and authors. Others include professional dog trainers and behavior consultants who successfully help dogs with serious behavior problems through shelters and other non-profit organizations that are dedicated to improving the welfare of dogs and other animals.

Second, the popularity of the show has not created a loss in business for professional trainers and behavior consultants. In fact, quite the opposite. We have seen a tremendous increase in calls as owners realize that behavior problems are not something they have to live with, which is the positive influence of the show.
Wysiwyg
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15-03-2009, 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by Harry21 View Post
Am I the only one who don't like this whole softly softly happyness and sunshine approach to dog training?
I love it - better than being an old grouch pretending dogs want to work for us because they are Lassie in disguise...

Did you hear that woman dog trainer say about traing through being rewarded or bribed with food to get results. Aposed to CM expecting it by being the leader.
Tee hee - did you hear and see CM causing a dog to redirect his bite onto his owner?! and did you hear the comments re timebombs?

Wys
x
Wysiwyg
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15-03-2009, 11:19 PM
Originally Posted by Boxer Boy View Post
I was not overly impressed with the article, thinking it could have been ripped straight from one of our dodgy red top tabloids,
Not really - I don't go for that sort of thing. There's actually a fair bit of real science mixed in there with which is up to date...
not exactly the objective critique the subject warrants.
It wasn't really meant to be objective, although I think it's actually pretty fair and reasonable with good explanations..it is, after all, pointing out flaws

I retain my mixed views of CM, however I wouldn't want to engage in a tear fest in my first week on this excellent forum, so I humbly retreat to the spectators enclosure.
I do think it's one subject guaranteed to make people get hot under the collar (regardless of which view they support).

Wys
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Meg
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15-03-2009, 11:41 PM
Originally Posted by Harry21 View Post
Am I the only one who don't like this whole softly softly happyness and sunshine approach to dog training?

Did you hear that woman dog trainer say about traing through being rewarded or bribed with food to get results. Aposed to CM expecting it by being the leader.

I think most people forget to treat dogs as dogs, and not human.
Harry many of us here have tried just about every method of dog training, I saw people doing the kind of thing CM does forty years ago, forcing dogs to submit by a variety of methods including restrict the dogs air supply, using the alpha roll (which is a flawed concept, a dog will submit to another dog voluntarily, I have never seen one dog grab another dog with its paws and roll it over )using a foot or hand to poke a dog/and in a video I saw recently picking a small dog up by its neck leaving the legs to dangle.

Many of us have moved on and found better methods to address behavioural problems and train dogs, methods that don't try to solve one problem while creating others.

I think some people forget dogs (or any animals) have as much right to be treated fairly and with kindness as humans..
Harry21
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16-03-2009, 12:18 AM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
Harry many of us here have tried just about every method of dog training, I saw people doing the kind of thing CM does forty years ago, forcing dogs to submit by a variety of methods including restrict the dogs air supply, using the alpha roll (which is a flawed concept, a dog will submit to another dog voluntarily, I have never seen one dog grab another dog with its paws and roll it over )using a foot or hand to poke a dog/and in a video I saw recently picking a small dog up by its neck leaving the legs to dangle.

Many of us have moved on and found better methods to address behavioural problems and train dogs, methods that don't try to solve one problem while creating others.

I think some people forget dogs (or any animals) have as much right to be treated fairly and with kindness as humans..

Well I don't think anyones disagreeing that animals have the same right to be treated faily and with kindness as humans, I'm certainly not. And as someone earlier pointed, CM dosn't kick/strike a dog in a violent manner. I'ts more to snap the dog out of it's mindset.

I think a lot of people are going a bit over the top criticising CM. Maybe he hasn't been right in these odd cases people talk about in the news reports, but for the most part he's made a huge difference to dog owners changing them and the wellbeing of their pets. Do no other trainers make mistakes?
Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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16-03-2009, 12:57 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
I've seen the action, and it's not usually a kick as such (by the time it is seen on tv) - however each dog sure avoids it and usually cringes submissively indicating that the dog has already been made aware of how hard his kick could be behind the scenes.
My dog for instance would not care if I raised my leg near to her, nor if i pushed her...nor I expect would most other people's if they've not been abused etc...

My dogs love it if I raise a leg to them we have kicky games all the time - and I play CM games where I come at them with jabby hands and go psst pssst psstt and they jump about for joy

It's just one of the things about his show that really annoys me. Ie the dogs have been pre conditioned to a leg movement that either hurts or that they associate with something that does...
Originally Posted by pagan View Post
Speaking as a trainer, I think all of us are always learning no matter how long you've been training.

The guys at dog borstal, victoria stillwell, cesar millan, jan fennel et al, are all at the mercy of the tv producers who want to condense hours of work into a 5 minute sound bite.

Well yes and no - I would like to think if you were a good trainer if you saw the edit and it condensed things to make your training methods dangerous if other people tried them then you wouldnt work with the station again - the dogs should come before the fame and TV raitings - so its a mistake anyone could make once - but for many series of the program

None of the multitude of programmes gives you the insight into the full training and it never provides you with all the tools you need to cure your own problems properly, this is never down to the trainer, but the production team.

All good trainers will tell you that advice should be individual to you and your dog and influenced by how you both learn and what you both feel comfortable doing. There are supporters and critics for all trainers - whether on tv or not! As long as the methods are not cruel or cause pain and suffering (in which case they should be banned) -everyone will always have their own preference.

ahh but that is the problem - non CM fans think some of his methods ARE cruel, do cause pain and could make SOME dogs worse in the long run - that is why it gets heated
and again before anyone jumps on me here - I am not saying anyone on here is using cruel painful methods - just SOME of CM's methods are IMO

Going back to the original point - overall I think his methods encourage people to have a healthy well fed happy dog that can interact sensibly and politely with people and other dogs which is something we should all aim for, but there have been particular cases for which his 'remedies' have raised some eyebrows.

I would say that until you have tried to solve these cases yourself you cannot know how you would approach such behaviour and the likelyhood is that he has exhausted many less forceful methods before employing these methods, but this would be the 'uniteresting' introduction that ended up on the cutting room floor.

I think you will find on here that some of the people against CM HAVE had experience of sucessfully dealing with these types of dogs.
And I have never seen heard or read about CM employing any softly softly methods behind the scenes

Cesar has a lot to offer in the way of advise for general dog-ownership:
exercise, discipline, affection - all important factors to having a well balanced dog. how many of you have missed a days full exercise of your high energy dog and then spent the first half of the next walk regretting that, usually with aching shoulders!

Exercise
Forced walks where the dog is not alowed to sniff?? running round with a roller blading man instead of investigating the world in a doggy way and hours on a treadmill
Yes dogs - and humans need exercise AND mental exercise, if you take your dog out every day and run it till it drops then every day it can run a little further - so you are training your dog to get fitter
My dogs have a varied life with mental and physical stimulation - and they are trained so they know when I need them to walk nice on a lead and when to bomb about and be a dog

Disciplin - nope thats not fair because you are not letting the dog know what is expected of it - TRAINING, rules and routien - then you dont need disciplin

Affection, yup that is the reward - but rewarding for good behaviour - any time good behaviour is given - not after making sure you have run its paws off and yanked and pssd it into submission


I have now exhausted myself and will get quietly down off my soap box, quit preaching and hopefully avoid a hail of arrows from any of you who disagree with me lol!!
Originally Posted by Harry21 View Post
Am I the only one who don't like this whole softly softly happyness and sunshine approach to dog training?

Ah again if we dont like CM then we are all hippies who beg and plead our dogs to please be nice

Did you hear that woman dog trainer say about traing through being rewarded or bribed with food to get results. Aposed to CM expecting it by being the leader.

See thats what I love about the CM way - if your dog does anything wrong its because you are not the leader
Of course a young wolf knows not to pull on the lead, not to get on the sofa or bark at the passing cars - it dosent need training to let it know what you would like it to do in these alien situations - it should just automaticaly know because you are a strong leader
No I didnt hear what the woman said - I am having computer issuse with running vids just now - did she say how dogs trained this way get to the top of their field in sport and obedience, or as guide dogs, hearing and disabled helpers??

I think most people forget to treat dogs as dogs, and not human.
Yup, and CM forgets that he is not a dog and does not know what they are thinking
Originally Posted by BigV View Post
I always enjoy dog whisperer on SKY....... I think Ceasar generally does a good job at correcting unwanted behaviour, especially with the aggressive dogs.

I'm not 100% convinced his methods are always best for more timid / shy dogs, but ultimately I don't believe he does the dogs and damage, physically or emotionally.

I do - and the problem is lots of dogs showing agression are actually vvv timid and scared

As for his kicking / hitting of the dogs...... well in my opinion anyone who objectively watches the show can see it is not causing physical pain, it is more an attention grabber to snap the dog out of its current mindset.

OK you wouldn't poke or prod a work mate or child if they weren't paying you attention, but we ARE talking about a DOG here not a human.

Yup, you can explain to a person that you are not a threat and you were just snapping them out of it - the dog just knows it is focused on one danger and then there is another danger - or at least a fright (cos at the end of the day that is what is snapping them out of it) comming from the person at the end of the lead

Oh, and from my personal experience...... we recently got a rescue puppy, 6 months old, and our older dog does gently nip the puppy to tell her off when she is misbehaving or being too boisterous........ and the puppy generally stops doing whatever she was doing, no harm done.

Dogs do correct each other yes, but they always give warnings and build up the correction and stop the seccond they need to - us humans are not the masters of body laungage that dogs are so if we try to correct we dont warn properly and jump in and give to harsh or to gentle corrections
watch most dogs when they correct, 1st they freeze, eyes get hard, then slight lip curl, then gentle growl, louder, louder, licking teeth, air snap, chasing
and if the other dog stops what its doing at any of these points then the correction is stopped - so often the hard look is enough
and if it isnt - do you have the physical strength and confidence to carry on escelating your correction and overpower a dog larger than yourself??


My only major complaint would be the way the show is edited to make everything look so easy and so instant - but then again all reality programs are like that really.
Originally Posted by Jem View Post
No I still think he's a tool x
I havent heard that phrase for years, thankyou

all that and I just got told my message was too short to post
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