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Emm
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14-07-2005, 10:26 AM
I understand that and if there were a section that included retrieving within the working dogs section would that not cover it?
Pita
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14-07-2005, 10:28 AM
Understand what you are saying Emm, but it is not just retrieving. For example it is necessary in this country (UK) to cull deer, they are used for meat but the main reason as far a wild deer are concerned is that as there are no natural predators left in this country, the deer would soon reproduce to an extent that they would either eat the food available to them and then die from malnutrition or start to raid farms where they would be shot at and trapped, both of which can maim but do not necessary kill.


Dogs used for culling deer do not retrieve, they track and hold at bay if needed, in other countries they hunt in such dense forest they have to use dogs or they would have difficulty in getting a clear view of the animal to be shot, either for food or because it is sick or injured, you would be surprised how many Roe Deer are hit by cars in the UK and then have to be 'hunted' down by keeper and dog in order that the deer can be saved days or weeks of pain before dieing of blood loss or infection.
bellaluna
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14-07-2005, 10:29 AM
Originally Posted by Emm
As for those people who think its a case of if theres a section on hunting you can just read it or not - I'm sorry its not that simple to me and its just as upsetting to me to have people trivalise that as it is for like amts to have to explain what she does

If some-one started a thread on the main board about using their dogs to get rid of vermin I would be able to put my point across how I am against that and think it is wrong - but if it were put in a hunting section and I made comment on it I would be told just don't read it
This is not wot I meant.

What I meant was, people who arent interested one way or the other in working dogs... Me for example... I might not be interested in this, well then I could jump this section, like I would do with f. ex. a show section.... As I have no interest in showing..

I think you misunderstood me.... This is one of those situations, where the language barrier is causing problems.

All I mean is, that I could CHOOSE to jump over the sections (or posts for that matter, if it will be in the normal sections - I havent suggested there being a separate section, that had already been suggested) as I do post's about showing.

Hope that made it a bit clearer
Emm
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14-07-2005, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Thordell

Understand what you are saying Emm, but it is not just retrieving. For example it is necessary in this country (UK) to cull deer, they are used for meat but the main reason as far a wild deer are concerned is that as there are no natural predators left in this country, the deer would soon reproduce to an extent that they would either eat the food available to them and then die from malnutrition or start to raid farms where they would be shot at and trapped, both of which can maim but do not necessary kill.


Dogs used for culling deer do not retrieve, they track and hold at bay if needed, in other countries they hunt in such dense forest they have to use dogs or they would have difficulty in getting a clear view of the animal to be shot, either for food or because it is sick or injured, you would be surprised how many Roe Deer are hit by cars in the UK and then have to be 'hunted' down by keeper and dog in order that the deer can be saved days or weeks of pain before dieing of blood loss or infection.


The whole qustion of even culling is another debate - and I'm not even going to go into that

If a dog has been used to kill another animal for whatever reason vermin, culling etc I can't be a part of any forum that has a section just for that - it goes against my beliefs - sorry if I cause offense I'm just being honset - like I said some people think its right some people think its wrong - I think its wrong and I don't want any part of that
Emm
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14-07-2005, 10:35 AM
Its alright Bellaluna I understand what you're saying I was referring to previous posts by others on the subject - wasn't just making comment on what you said
bellaluna
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14-07-2005, 10:36 AM
Pheeew thank you, I was trying so hard to explain
Emm
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14-07-2005, 10:36 AM
I know me too
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14-07-2005, 10:56 AM
Thank you for your taking the time to write your point of view amts.

I appreciate your skill in dog handling and training and the enjoyment you get out of working with your dog. What those against hunting will never understand, however, is why these skills and understanding of nature have to be used to kill other animals - this has been discussed many times so I'm not going to regurgitate it here. It is good to hear that you personally do not approach hunting like a 'Rambo out to get a rush', but unfortunately there are those that do.

The idea of the solitary hunter only killing to put food on the table is more palatable than the guy who goes out purely to stalk and kill for the pure pleasure of it. But how many hunters only hunt for food?
We have commercial shooting estates in Britain, and it has been estimated that around 12000 mammals and birds are killed on these every day. Some include protected protected badgers, foxes, hares, stags, owls, kestrels, and domestic livestock and pets, die, whether deliberately or by accident, I don't know. There is big money in commercial shooting. A certain celebrity in this country charges a reported 10K for people to use her estate for the day.

Breeding of gamebirds in the UK to shoot has been found to be not only for private shooting in some areas but to fill demand for gamebirds in restaurants and shops, so not for the hunter's own dinner. Cruel and intensive breeding methods have been discovered here too.

Is it necessary to hunt in order to sit quietly with a dog observing wildlife - what better way to do this than merely go to observe and photograph?

You have stated: "It isnít about getting pleasure and satisfaction from the hunt or the killing itself but about the pleasure and satisfaction of working with the dog I care for." I do not understand this, please could you explain it to me? I am sure I would enjoy working a dog outside with nature, but I would not enjoy killing, therefore I could not hunt. Instead I would choose another form of working. Why hunt if you do not enjoy?

Your point of culling is a fair one, and I agree that deer need to be culled but this should, and I believe has become, strictly controlled. However, I would not wish to read about or see what I consider to be a beautiful animal lying dead. Can you understand that point of view?

I would be interested in reading about your dog training and handling skills etc. but I do not want to read about animals being killed for obvious reasons. I think you have agreed to this where you have said:

"So I guess Iím asking for the Section to allow me to be able to talk about my training in a way that everyone can accept and not get offended by. If that means not mentioning wildlife, then letís stick to dummies?"

Do we have a solution then?
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14-07-2005, 10:58 AM
Originally Posted by Emm
The whole qustion of even culling is another debate - and I'm not even going to go into that

If a dog has been used to kill another animal for whatever reason vermin, culling etc I can't be a part of any forum that has a section just for that - it goes against my beliefs - sorry if I cause offense I'm just being honset - like I said some people think its right some people think its wrong - I think its wrong and I don't want any part of that
Emm, I understand what you are saying and I do respect your beliefs. The point is that the dog is not used in any way in the types of hunt described by amts to kill. It is used to retrieve dead or injured game. In the type described by Thordell, where culling is necessary to the continued well-being of the population, it is used to keep the animal in one place for the hunter. There is no tearing and rending of flesh, no blood-lust on the part of dog or hunter, just a job do be done by a dog that is bred to undertake the work.

(I cannot speak for the terriers, I was hoping perhaps Dawn might do that in order that we might understand how they work).

We will probably never meet on this, but I hope that you will not leave DW simply because some may, and only may at this stage, be allowed to discuss working gundogs.

SB
Pita
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14-07-2005, 11:00 AM
Understand when people have strong beliefs, it is their right. Some Vegans think that Vegetarians behaviour repulsive. Thing is, why would you cut yourself off from reading a forum about dogs because some of the people on it like to use their dogs in a way you would not consider.

Some people who are against killing of animals for meat still feel able to feed meat to their dogs, others do not. Some people truly believe that farming or keeping animals of any kind as pets is a revolting, I have no problem what so ever with the way people think, even if I think they have not thought it through, it is up to the individual and as long as they do not criticise me or try to force me to change the way I think, thatís fine by me. Open discussion is fine and I always welcome the explanation of how other view a particular issue, sometimes that changes the way I view something.

By the same rule, everyone has a right to read what they wish and ignore that they find objectionable, but do they have a right to tell others what they can read and discuss, IMHO no.
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