Is there Terrier there?

Is there Terrier there?

The Staffordshire bull terrier, how much terrier if any, is present in our dogs. This question engages my mind every so often, I wonder if any other forum members have any thoughts on this. The main problem I have with the crossing to a terrier is what could it give to the Bulldogge that it did not already possess. Remember the original Bulldogge was a canine wrecking machine no other dog could match it at its pugilistic profession. I have read most if not all SBT books and their explanation for the crossing of the two, e.g. smaller dogs more agility and so on. What a load of bull!! For many decades working terrier men have introduced bull blood to their dogs, in order to maintain the grit required by these diminutive warriors. If any terrier ever existed that could add something to the Buldogge of old then I have never came across it. I think the biggest assumption that modern day authors make is that people of centuries past where somehow mentally incompetent. As far back as the Roman invasion of these shores individuals were given the task of procuring dogs for the arenas in Rome, you had to know a good dog your life literally depended on it. Henry VIII instigated the office of (Master of the Royal Game of Bears and Mastyve Dogs) it would be very presumptive indeed for any of us standing in today’s modern show rings to assume our knowledge of canines comes any where close to the knowledge of the canine species possessed by individuals of this and later periods. They may not have had the scientific knowledge that modern canine students utilise such as Genetic Inheritance, they based their breeding programmes on best to best principles in a time when best meant just that, along the Darwinian lines of survival of the fittest. Again nature showing the correct procedures. I believe almost two centuries ago people simply bred the smaller of the Bulldogges together and accomplished the reduction in size by this means, similar to many of today’s current breeds.

hi HD, im so thick are you asking if our staffies have alot of terrier in them and if so is it a good thing or bad thing??

im sorry!

Hello SM, I am asking if there is any terrier at all in our breed, or if it is a figment of others imagination, eg, people are uncertain of our breeds background so have they made up a history to suit the name.

HD, I always wondered about that myself. I'm not a bull breed person, so I don't know, but I have thought that maybe they gave them the name terrier to make them attractive to a certain market. You know like they did with the Tibetan Terrier, they gave it the name terrier so that it would sell over here .

ok i understand now, i see what you mean but i really dont know enough on my breed to comment on that as i have ever only had them for 3 years! I want to learn more and more!

I believe you may have a point there Joanne, as the bulldog of old had a reputation similiar to the present APBT, and I would think the addition of the terrier name would soften peoples perceptions of my breed,

SM it is good to know you have a thirst for knowledge on our breed, I hope some day you quench it.

Exactly HD, that's what I was thinking, terrier = family/farm dog, good all rounder, probably a better seller . The thing is, I imagine if this was the case and terrier had not been bred into the breed it would be difficult to prove, I imagine everyone covered their tails pretty well. I look at a Staffy, bull terrier, and I must say that I really can't see a "terrier", but bull breeds and terriers have so many similar traits that it's difficult to know for sure .

That being said, there are so many breeds that we don't know for sure what's behind them. Take the Irish, some people say Wolfhound, some people say ancient terriers.......will we ever know?

Hi HD the bulldogge of old from what I have learnt through reading was a formidable machine, as you say.

If you look at the old pictures then anyone with eyes in their head would agree with your statement of "a canine wrecking machine" Has anyone seen the picture/drawing of Stockdale's "Top" the type of dog referred to as "pure" bulldog in 1879. I tell you I would not want to tackle him.

Your question is one I have often wondered about. The word terrier in relation to the Staff I once posted on another site asking "why" they were in the terrier group. I mean Boston Terriers aren't. The answers were wide and varied but most thought they should be. I personaly think they should be in Utility.

I read an excellent letter in one of the dog paper about 5-6 years ago asking the same question.

But Joanne's point is a good one and one I had not considered before that it was added to increase there popularity - a very reasonable idea I think.

Karen

As you say Kazz, I have seen many paintings, etchings of Bulldogs of the old sort, those who were prized for their feats in different areas, but I have never seen many historical terriers renowned for similiar feats, Billy the ratting dog certainly looks like a terrier cross, but his forty was ratting not combat, I think more clues point towards there being no crosses made to the fighting dog, than those that support the crossing theory.

Hi HD,
as u know we used to keep and breed stafffies, and i am under the immpression that the original model of staffies were two parts bull one part terrier, the terrier was introduced to make them a little more agil, tenacious, and stubborn.
This type of dog was a fighter and ratter, but they were how to put it rather common, until the selct breeding came in, and we have one man to thank for this.
Many types of bulle-terriers had been bred, it is said to have varied in the regiongs, for instance here in the midlands, thye prefered the smaller stockier variety.
But the man they say was the father of the breed was the Duke of Hamilton, as he spent much time and money in breeding the ultimate fighting dog, and he was much resented for this, as he only gave his fighting dogs to fellow monarchs of much esteem
The Dukes most famous fighting dogs, are probably the ancestors of todays dogs, Wasp, Child, Billy, and Tygerthey were of the ultimate Terrier-bulldoge breed lines, all stocky and harsh they were all predominantly white, if they werent pure white,m all apart from Tyger whom was a brindle and white.




This is the history and origins of the breed taken from 'The Complete staffordshire Bull Terrier-Danny Gilmour.
Not too sure about todays breed, as you do see some that are more bull then terrier, a bit leggier, thinner, with longer snouts, and less defined skulls.
But then u see the shorter stockier Bully type, with the shorter legs, and muzzle, broader skull, and stronger Jaw.
hope this helps
best wishes