Certainly with northern breed types, they are definitely all - both male and female - gits!! Loveable gits. They are supremely intelligent and love to push the boundaries, to see how far they can push you, to see whether they can scare you even! That was Hal's favourite trick ... he absolutely hated being groomed, but would never turn on you like Ben still does if you go too far. He would emit the most terrifying growls just to see if you would be scared! All sound and fury of course, signifying nothing other than a wolf cross gittishness!

Whereas I truly believe in "rank", "pack leader", alphas, betas and omegas, (very old-fashioned I know, but I believe David Mech is wrong ... why? Because I have observed with my own dogs - both wolf crosses and chihuahuas - that dogs have a certain rank - Hal was an alpha male through and through, his son Ben is a classic beta, Tai was a high ranking beta. Gucci, my daughter's elder chihuahua is definitely high ranking - he is boss of Ben and Tai whilst Tai was still alive. It is incredibly funny to watch Gucci - or 2 or 3 kilos of him - doing the alpha male stuff with Ben, and Ben licking his lips, lowering his gaze and submitting.

I'm rambling here, but I do agree that Ben is not being dominant when he jumps on the bed or the sofa - he is jumping on the bed and the sofa simply because it is more comfortable for him than lying on the floor! When he is lying in my place, and he mock-threatens me when I hold his collar and tell him to get down, this is just Ben being a git ... trying it on, for sure, but he is not trying to attempt world domination!

Myra ... No doubt Dibby will correct me if I'm wrong but as I read her post, in no way was she referring to commands as force. She was pointing out that there are other ways of getting a dog to do what you want it to without using a command.

To give you another example of this ... The other evening when I let both dogs out for their toilet, my Schnauzer was out for a couple of minutes and came back in without being called whilst Georgie, as usual, didn't come in immediately. A few minutes later I heard her barking furiously, so I picked up her lead and some treats and went out to see what the noise was all about. I found her running up and down near the front gates, barking at a car which had its engine running with the headlights full on and the sound of someone filing metal. No idea what they were doing, but whatever it was, it was agitating Georgie. When she reaches this state, she's completely oblivious to any commands or treats and if I try to catch her it only makes her worse and until she calms down I don't stand a cat in hell's chance of getting her inside.

From experience I've found the easiest way to do this is to stand with my back to her, ignore her and pretend to take an interest in whatever is causing her distress. At the same time I talk to her quietly reassuring her there's nothing to be worried about and I try to keep my body language as relaxed as possible. It might take anything from two to ten minutes for her to relax but eventually, she'll come to stand next to me and I'll give her a treat, massage her neck, tell her she's such a good girl, clip her lead on and walk her back into the house.

I've achieved what I wanted to achieve without using a single command or even raising my voice (and blood pressure) above normal and probably according to most training manuals broken all the rules ... but that's what happens when you understand your dog as well as I do!

I'm aware that thee are other ways, my Nigredo knows many hand signals and other nonverbal cues. Nigredo can do nearly 20 verbal commands and knows a perfect heel, recall, and is not only better behaved than every single dog on this block, but is also better behaved than MANY, MANY dogs. I know him super well (I spoke about that in a previous post) and he gets mostly everything with no trouble.

Elevated levels of blood pressure are caused when you're expecting a dog to do something it doesn't know how to do. He fails epically at it, of course, and then you get mad and shout the command, which of course doesn't help and you blow it all to hell. Commands such as NO having power is done over time by earning your dogs trust, love, and respect.

A dog who doesn't care about you will ignore your commands. A dog who has his bad behavior ignored will not listen, either. Training doesn't work like that. You can't say SIT and expect the dog to know how. You have to relax and take your time with dogs.

Taking a stolen treat from a dog and saying NO won't work at first, but given time and patience, like any training, it WILL work. It's not harsh, takes a split second, and works perfectly with with no harm, no foul. Also, my blood pressure does not go up and it's rather fast at this point.

Maybe your dogs are trying to tell you something in their own language, in the same way all dogs do and not tricking you.
Some dogs hate being groomed! if my dogs have disliked or hated something I listen to them and find ways and means to make it that they dont mind it instead of ignoring their reaction.

You said that Ben turns on you if you go to far, this is what happens and people get badly bitten and its the dog that suffers because they usually get destroyed.

This is why it is so very important to teach pups Bite inhibition , as I mentioned in my first post on this thread.
If a dog does attack , the bites will be far less worse than dogs without bite inhibition . I worked in kennels and with the RSPCA for many years and I've seen people end up in hospital with their arms badly torn.



David Mech studied wolves in the wild for many years and still does. , and he says they didnt have a linear heirarchy. Saying you believe your dogs do have a linear heirarchy doesnt mean or prove he is wrong.

Dog behaviour is a comparatively new science , more studies are being done so we are increasing our knowledge all the time and building on what we all ready know from previous studies. We also have better ways of studying behaviour and sometimes find that previous studies have flaws.

We do have trends in the way we train our dogs but somethings never change, and that is how mammals learn.

To understand domestic dog behaviour , you have to understand how it behaves in a natural state IE ethology. So depending on where you believe dogs came from , you would have to study wild wolves or dogs who are free to act out their natural behaviour and not restricted or force to act in certain ways because of captivity .

You know I think dogs would make a better job of ruling the world than us humans


If anyone else is still reading this there loads of stuff about dominance and rank etc in Barry eatons Dominace Fact or Fiction and James O'heares Dominance theory and dogs .

I wonder what they were up too! I think I'd let my dogs carry on barking to scare them off.
I let my small dogs out in the front garden at night as its easier to see what they are up too and I stand on the doorstep. Its fully fenced with panel fencing. If people are passing, I pre empt any barking by saying Quietly, and as they can't see the dogs they think I'm talking to them.

Me saying that personally I think David Mech got it wrong does not of course mean I am right and he is wrong. But it does mean that I am expressing my own personal opinion which in a democratic country is perfectly legal and should be encouraged, because it is how we learn and grow and develop, by being constantly challenged and being challenging.

The reason I think that DM did his famous volte face is that he was overlooking one vital point when living and watching the wolves on Ellesmere Island - the wolves were introduced onto the island, they were not found naturally there. A wild number of wolves were released onto the island, which effectively is like having them in captivity ... in a massive Woburn if you like! I know the island is quite big, but nowhere as big as a normal pack of wolves would range on the mainland. On the mainland, packs separate, pups grow up and leave to form their own packs, the packs are fluid. On Ellesmere this was not the case ... there was not enough space for there to be the possibility for the fluidity that exists on the mainland.

What David Mech was watching was the evolution of wolf into domestic dog effectively (I am not saying that wolves can be turned into domestic dogs, but by living in a semi-artificial environment, dog-like traits that we know and recognise in our beloved pets will start to develop.

This is what I personally believe David Mech was seeing - a wolf pack living in a semi artificial environment, as I say like a very large Woburn. Which creates artificial behaviours, not normally seen in a normal, natural wolf pack with hundreds if not thousands of miles to potentially roam.

Well yes, I agree with that . I did in fact say that "Saying you believe your dogs do have a linear heirarchy doesnt mean or prove he is wrong."

Yes, absolutely. We're having an interesting debate about wolves and dogs and alpha etc and stretching ourselves and discussing this in a reasonable way .

Actually I think there has been a misunderstanding. I should have taken the time to ask what is was (that you thought) Mech got wrong.
I assumed you meant that he was wrong about wild wolves living in small family packs and not have a strict linear heirarchy within each pack and Alphas are simply the parents . Is that what you think he is wrong about?

you're saying that on the mainland, packs are fluid , I think he is saying that too.
and I would assume he would agree that some younger wolves would leave the pack at some time. It sounds like you saying something very similar and I'm a bit confused !.

You could well have a point about the size of the island etc . I need to read the literature .

When you mention wolves living in a semi artificial enviroment developing dog like traits , what would they be ? I cant think of any offhand. perhaps tameness?

I've just learnt it was my next door but one neighbour's son repairing her front gate. I think what upset Georgina was that the headlights were glaring directly at where she normally stands when she goes out at night. She's not a dog that barks very much ... she leaves that to her Schnauzer brother!

Like you, if I want to preempt or stop them barking I say "quietly" which usually does the trick, except on Sunday morning when everyone in the village troops by my gate on their way to and from church. Although I try to make sure the dogs are inside it's sometimes difficult because morning service isn't always held at the same time.

Chlosmum , he could have used a torch. I bet his car has a flat battery .

My JRT x barks at people because he loves them and wants their attention , but he barks at dogs passing because he doesnt like them . Unfortunately, we have many owners and dogs passing by on their way to the park so they only go out the front to go to the toilet. Even if I am doing gardening , i dont let them out with me because I dont want Pip and Libby to practising the behaviour of running up and down and barking.

I dont believe it! There was a programme on at Christmas about the white wolves of Ellesmere island and I missed it .
Hows that for a coincidence. Im going to mtry to watch it on catch up

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b04ww480