Just passing through the minefield here...another consideration is finding a word besides "No". As with human children if they hear a word too often it completely loses impact. Another consideration is disciplining timid dogs.
I used to think because Sophie freaks over virtually everything that I didn't have to make her even more frightened with commands. But it took two rather ghastly situations for me to get wise to her reasoning.

One was a squirrel she caught during a walk. Squirrel is screaming for it's life. Sophie is glassy eyed with squirrel in mouth. I'm doing anything I can think of to free squirrel.
Then the squirrel went limp and she dropped it just like that.
Next was a kitten we had brought home. Same situation but briefly Sophie met me eye to eye. What I could read in there was defiance. " I don't care what you do or say I AM doing this"...It changed how I saw her and how I trained her. After that I wasn't afraid to be gruff anymore when it was called for. And she has gotten worlds better contained on leash because of it.

Before you can start to rehabilitate a fearful, shut down dog you need to identify the cause and take into consideration the dog's temperament.

My dog Georgina, went blind at 4 months old and it took 5 operations, dozens of visits to the vets and eye drops administered 4 times a day to restore her sight to normal at the age of 13 months. To compensate for her lack of sight her hearing became hypersensitive and the slightest sound, even the hoot of an owl in the middle of the night sent her into a mad panic. Living with a young dog, who by virtue of her disabilty is terrified virtually 24 hours a day is no picnic, particularly when you're a single, elderly owner. And to complicate matters, Georgina is Shar-Pei a breed that's aloof, reserved, "other worldly", suspicious, slow to trust, and as stubborn as a mule. They're also extremely sensitive dogs and to get the best from them they need an owner who is quietly firm and gently coaxes them along.

Luckily for both of us, I'd owned Shar-Pei before so had a good understanding of their nature. After a lot of thought and realising I couldn't cope with everything at once, I decided to deal with her behaviour indoors, if only because I desperately needed a good night's sleep! Noises from the TV came first on the list. Every time she reacted, I'd quietly calm her down and place in front of the screen and whisper the word "television". The TV and a table lamp were left on in the living room during the night to get her accustomed to the sound and also to baffle any external night time noises. After a couple of weeks, all I had to do was say "television Georgie" to calm her down. Her panic attacks became fewer both in the evening and at night and after another week or so I was able to turn off the lamp and TV when we went to bed. During the day I'd spend a great deal of time with her identifying noises that upset her and whenever possible I'd show her where the offending noise came from. For example, when the dustcart came round I'd say "Dustcart Georgie" or "Postman" when his van arrived. The whole time I spoke to her in a normal tone of voice and very often in a whisper. I didn't try to restrain her or force her to face a situation she was uncomfortable with, rather choosing to ignore her and tackle the problem later.

At 9 months old after her 4th operation, when she had around 70% sight I was able to take her to obedience training and after her 5th operation at 13 months old she and I started a Police Dog Training Course where she gets to meet and work with dogs of all sizes and temperaments. As she was still prone to the occasional anxiety attack, after long discussions with her trainer and a his breeder I bought a 9 month old, very laid back, Miniature Schnauzer as a companion for her. The two of them hit it off immediately and he's proving to be a real asset. His happy go lucky and affectionate nature has "rubbed off" on her and since I've had him Georgina is more relaxed especially with me ... that horrible woman who allowed those monster vets to stick needles in her and do terrible things to her!

One of the happiest days of my life was when my lovely Shar-Pei girl who's been through so much trauma in her short life, was when for the first time she came up to me and pushed her nose in my face ... that was the moment I realised she trusted me and we were finally over a very unhappy period of our lives!

Nope! I like some of CM's stuff, but do not agree with the going through doors first and eating first. With such large dogs, I need my dogs in front of me where I can keep an eye on them! Hal, my now deceased wolf cross, had a horrible habit of goosing you liberally if he was behind you, so I liked him to go ahead for obvious reasons! His son Ben, although castrated, is not much better!

A fearful dog needs a firm leader ... a loving but firm, assertive leader who sets the rules, boundaries and limitations (a bit of CM there!). Ben's aggression towards other dogs is based on fear, because he was repeatedly beaten up by a female rottie who used to live with but who hated him and put him in the vet several times, which is why he was rehomed from there. We are still coming to terms with this aggression as it is selective now, rather than consistent in that all black or dark coated males, particularly Labradors, were a sure target. Now it is inconsistent in that sometimes females are involved ... it is all very confusing and I have to admit although I am pretty good at reading dogs I cannot always anticipate when Ben is going to kick off, sometimes but definitely not always, so he is always walked on a lead now until we scan all horizons for approaching dogs and know that it is safe to let him run free. His recall is excellent, so if we do espy a dog in the distance we can quickly and easily get him back on his harness.

I do not believe in rank reduction - a dog is the rank that he was born with, and that will not change (I firmly believe in pack and rank, I know it is not fashionable, but there it is). But I will not allow my dog to be my superior ... he is allowed on the bed and on the furniture, but he must get down when told to without any fuss. He is not allowed to jump up or barge or generally display bad manners to any animal including us humans, he has to wait patiently whilst his food is being prepared and sometimes we make him sit and "trust" before he is allowed to eat. He is not particularly obedient or biddable ... northern breeds are not these things ... but he is comfortable in his own skin now, in our pack, feeling confident and secure with loving humans who understand him and who make him feel safe. When he first came to us he was fearful of humans as well as dogs because he had been treated so appallingly in some of his previous homes, now he is loving and trusting not only with us but with all humans. He particularly loves children and babies and is absolutely sweet with them and loves to be patted and stroked by then.

He is a joy to live with, even though he is a git!!

Thanks for explaining. It does save time in the long run .
The point you made about not being fashionable. i know where you are coming from ,
there are always trends and certain things become more popular . I'm just so glad I'm not seeing the D word so much.
My dogs trying to dominate me , my horse is trying to dominate me , even my cat is trying to dominate me, Argh!! No they're not !

Uncertainty is one of the most stressful things and creates anxiety in dogs so having rules if they are fair goes long way in helping fearful dogs to relax and trust . They know what is what. Dogs dont do good or bad , they do safe or dangerous . Knowing what is safe gives them confidence and frees them from the fear of punishment.

I'm not good with uncertainty myself , i havea fridge magnet that says I used to be uncertain now I'm not so sure ! LOL

I've got more to say but I've just finished of the new years fizzy stuff so am signing off but will get back to you .

Look forward to it!

Good post there, Gnasher. Dogs get away with what we LET them get away with. At least, IMO that is the mentality to have. When I got home from the hospital very weak and unable to even lift my 15 lb cat, my Nigredo jumped on my bed and laid with me. Like he scrunched me into the wall.

Normally he gets down when told, but he refused. He either really felt bad for me and REALLY thought it was important to lay near me, or he KNEW I did not have the strength to shove him off. He was also snarkier, so he was just being really over-protective. He's nice to everyone and everything, so ANY snarkiness is totally not him.

The big monster! I enjoyed his company admittedly, and I gave up on making him get down. I'd have prodded him with something to annoy him into getting down, locked him somewhere else, or waved my mother's arthritis stuff in his face (he hates it and runs from it) if I truly cared enough.

Now that I am better, and much of my strength has returned, he gets down as soon as I ask him to like normal. No harm, no foul. Had I forced him to get down when he was only really worried about me, I don't think it would have ended so smoothly. It was only love, it was NOT "dominance" or him being stubborn.

It's kind of funny how we can often underestimate dogs. I didn't force the issue, because I knew what he was doing. I think in situations like this, we can show some leniency.

I LET him invade my space for about a week or so, because he was doing it because he sensed my weakness. I knew he wasn't just being difficult, because Nigredo is not like that. I did not like it, and it disrupted my sleep etc. but I tolerated it.

This is just another testament that is trying to say that because we tell our dogs NO and whatnot, does not mean we don't care about them or are being mean to them. We know our dogs, and we do not force anything upon them. Nigredo loves me more than SOOOO many people's dogs love them.

I could do a video of us together on a normal in-home day and people would be astonished. He's my shadow, he's always bright eyed and bushy tailed (it's rare that his tail isn't curled up and wagging furiously) and he's loyal to a fault, so not a soul in the world would EVER convince me that he has "shut down" or that he is scared of me.

I think we need to define rank here. The verb rank means (according to the new penguin english dictionary ) to take or have a position in relation to others.

Most packs of wolves , dogs , wild dogs etc are non - linear , there is not a strict heirarchy , rank will vary according to maturity , breeding status etc , the nature of the dog . Dog packs are often very loose and fluid.

A dogs or wolfs genes determines its assertiveness or lack of assertiveness which would have a bearing on the position it will be in the pack , but again packs are changable.

BTW If we have several dogs and have problems between them , I dont believe we should mess around with trying to alter their status or try to put one above the other.


We all want our dogs to do the above!. A dog is not deliberately signalling to you that he wants to be your superior or dominate you by not getting off the bed when you tell him .

I like you description of him That well fits my Libby!

ETA I mentioned wolves and packs and I've never gone deeply into wolves and behaviour though I did cover it .I perhaps have forgotten a lot

This website in is my favourites http://www.davemech.org/news.html

he studied wovles (and still does ) and wrote books about them . The Alpha wolf notion was taken from his books but he saya its now outdated .
Theres more explanation about this and also two PDfs you can read or download One is Leadership in Wolves and the other is Alpha Status, Dominance, and Division of Labor
in Wolf Packs.

http://www.nonlineardogs.com/socialorganisation.html

The above is the Social Organisation of Domestic Dogs by Alexandra somebody

Gnasher,
When you put "But I will not allow my dog to be my superior ... he is allowed on the bed and on the furniture, but he must get down when told to without any fuss. "

perhaps this could also mean I dont want my dog to flout my authority . It really is annoying when dogs dont want to do or wont do what you ask . I think its a human thing , they get angry in a How Dare You Way , do what you're told !

It really is annoying and also frustrating when they dont do as you want . Reasons can vary , over excitement for example.
I take that into account , sometimes I like to outwit my dogs , Libby chi really hates having to go to the toilet when its wet and dark and cold . She runs to her bed and then rolls on her back and goes all wriggly, appeasive behaviour . I let the other dogs out and then pretend there someone there by saying hello or look theres a fox and she runs out on her own accord . To me thats a result , shes quickly done what I wanted and with no force.

Below is just general info , not aimed at anyone in particular .

Training is a learning process where a dog learns the consequences.

Depending on the dog and the behaviour you want to alter -

A punisher or reinforcer will work
" " " wont work
" " " will work but the effect wears off
" " " may appear to work


Also , you are not "punishing" or rewarding the dog , you are punishing or rewarding the behaviour.

Yes , absolutely


Ah , really heart warming to hear that. You really came up with a good plan there and gave it time to work .
I also find that giving chicken or dried liver treats helps too with scared and reactive dogs. They associate it with the scary thing so it becomes less scary . If they dont take the treat , it gives me an indication of how scared they are and so i c an move away from the scary thing where they feel more comfortable .

Dibby, may I ask why you are referring to commands as force? There is no physical force involved. The dogs hear the tone and simply get it. When done correctly, it works nearly instantly. Dogs that are struck or beaten into submission may shut down, but that is not what is going on here. Admittedly, I'll nudge a dog down etc. If needed, but it's only a light nudge and it works instantly.

I've never seen a person have so much of an aversion to gentle and often very effective methods. We are not using force, and rules we set must be obeyed, since not only is it our house, and the dogs are our property (fight this all you like but we are owners), but we often know what's better for our dogs than they do.

A no, a firmly given "get down" or "stop" is not harming or scaring the dog and it's often for their own good. My Nigredo can be a mite stubborn at home and this works best for him. Jade is old and she kind of gets her way, but still. Besides, I've never been of the mentality that bad or unacceptable behavior s should be rewarded.