I don't know how all shoots are run, but on the large sporting estate where I live (and on all the neighbouring estates) it is a huge part of the gamekeepers job. I never said it was their SOLE job. I said it was a LARGE part of their job - which is most definitely is here. The keepers are out most nights lamping, and have snares running most of the year, as well as other various traps for other predators.

To be perfectly honest, I don't like the large shooting estates, and don't think of them as a normal shoot. All the shoots I know have one main gamekeeper, and perhaps a couple of helpers at most, and that's it. Vermin control is certainly not a large part of their job, and that's thinking about seven shoots off the top of my head, as well as chatting with plenty of other gamekeepers, so to compare it to a large *sporting* estate is wrong really. These large sporting estates are not particularly sporting, it's about sheer volume of fnumbers, not something I agree with. And something I definitely do not agree with are the shooting towers you find on some of these large estates, where birds are released from a tower with guns around them to shoot the birds. Ask any gun with an ounce of decency and it's about the quality of the birds, not the quantity, and how well they fly which pushes them to shoot well to have any chance at all of hitting the target.

Shooting towers, really Where? I have never heard of that one before and would have thought they would be illegal. Do you mean they release them on the day, out of the tower? I know they do that in America, or something similar but never knew it was done in this country The only towers I have seen, in relation to shooting, is on a clay ground.

I know a fair few keepers from all around the country, and a large part of their job IS vermin control.

As an aside, Kirsty and myself, live on a grouse shoot and it is totally different to a pheasant shoot. Each keeper has a pretty large beat that they are in charge of - vermin control etc. They do come together to do various jobs throughout the year, to help each other out - heather burning etc. We also have 4 pheasant keepers here, but they have reduced the number of pheasants they release as they are liking the smaller bags. What size bags do you get? What do you think is accetable?

Have to say, this is a very nice debate, although v v busy!, about foxes and I'm enjoying reading other peoples viewpoints, without everyone falling out

Helen

I think it's an idea brought over from the States, and somehting that is just completely barbaric in my view, I don't like them at all.

The OH was once on a shoot as a roving syndicate member, the two guys he was with were shooting at everything. He had a dog out with him as a peg dog, the other two guns were shooting as many birds as possible, regardless of distance. When asked at the end of a drive to send his dog to retrieve a bird, he politely asked them which bit would they liked retrieved first, and walked off with his dog.

Shooting is expensive, and so it should be, hopeully the price brings home the gravity of what is taking place, and helps infer the respect needed for the quarry. Unfortunately that doesn't always happen, and some people simply go for shooting as many birds as they can, without any respect for them. It's certainly not, for those I know, a competition for numbers, but more for making the best shot.

I never said vermin control isn't part of any keeper's remit, it is however just a part of their remit in the vast majority of instances, not the focus of their attentions. A lot of the vermin control for many shoots is to do with rat control, as their birds are fed corn, for grouse shoots that's different of course. I know of two shoots that have badget setts on their land, and yet the amount of times I've seen posts (not this one) accusing the hunting/shooting world of breaking the law and culling badgers without any real evidence, just something they've heard of. Well I've heard of the sasquatch but until I see one I'll reserve judgement!

And yes, it is nice to debate these things, and see all sides without threads spiralling into pettiness, as is often the case on some forums.

sorry, trying to get my head round this one - they release the pheasants ON the day from these towers?

Like all walks of life, there are good guns, and bad guns. I used to be against the large bags, which to me, is a bag over 150 as that is what I used to go beating on. Here, it is sometimes double that, but I see it as well run shoot, with just family days, and very few let days.

You just need to read the research done by the Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust to see how good shooting is for the biodiversity of the countryside.

Helen

No, they don't release pheasants on the day, they release game birds, can be a mix of pheasant and French partridge from these towers as the guns are waiting to shoot them. Abhorent is the simple phrase that springs to mind.

I think the thing people don't realise is that shooting estates and shoots that are run well, by people who genuinely care, not only provide a good source of income for the rural economy, but they do genuinely also maintain good conservation techniques. Unfortunately a lot of people think that conservation means that every animal survives and lives a long happy life, but that simply isn't feasible or realistic. It's easy to criticise those who are at the forefront of controlling fox numbers as being in the wrong, without actually knowing the individual circumstances, and why it's necessary in the view of many to ensure that foxes are controlled and don't have a negative impact on businesses where game birds, chickens are reared. It's also worth noting foxes do regularly predate on lambs as well, and have taken species as large as caribou calves, well documented instances. When you get a predator that starts predating in this way, it's not opportune, they have learnt to benefit from a particular niche, unfofrtunately, where that niche impacts on humans, it can't be allowed to carry on. Sheep farmers can't afford to loose a large quantity of lambs to foxes.

Living on a keepered estate, we rarely loose lambs to foxes. Interestingly though the neighbouring estate is agricultural and not keepered (in fact the landowner on that estate is rather anti-shooting), and they rarely loose lambs either. Perhaps it is because there is an abundance of more easily captured prey. I don't know.

However, my OH once did a few lambing seasons on a Highland (agricultural) estate where fox control was as large a part of the job as caring for the sheep, if not more so. Mainly because there was so little food for foxes, that they would predate regularly on lambs at lambing time. Not a happy situation for fox or shepherd.

This is why I think it's a little unfair to be completely against culling foxes, when individual circumstances play a huge part not only on individual shoots, but for all the land owners who request the services of folk to control numbers. One farm may sufer a lot more than another, you can't just lump them all in together, but the simple fact is culling is required in certain circumstances, and not in others.

I know the gamekeepers I know are aware of foxes on the land they monitor and keep, and are aware if they become a problem. The vast majority of them admire foxes as a wild animal, but unfortunately it's part of their remit to control numbers should they become a nuisance. Just as it's their remite to raise game birds to be as healthy and vigorous as possible.

so, they are doing this ON the day of the shoot. A group of guns stand underneath, and the "keepers" push these game birds off? Is that how it is working? Just trying to understand as I, nor my OH, has never heard of this before and we both work in the shooting industry, albeit the grouse.

Helen

I live in a village and they have more than one Rooster. They bought 4 "hen chicks" and three grew into roosters which they grew fond of - they have since added more chickens.