I didn't look at CC's post until you linked to it.
The difference between you Gnasher and CC is that you comment on CMs theories...you suggest why they work for you and describe examples clearly and politely.CC adds nothing to the threads in that way...I hoped when I saw she was posting again that she might...so I checked a couple of posts and she didn't so I don't read them anymore...and judging by the tone of the one you linked to...nothing has changed still.

Well I am sorry to type today that I have 1st hand experience of how bad CM's methods can be

Mia and Lucy are similar, both nervous and a bit reactive
So of course it wasnt love at first sight

I used counterconditioning, rewarding calm and getting Lucys owner to treat Mia whenever she saw her

Lucys owner punished Lucy with pssst noises, claming the space and banishment to kitchen any time Lucy showed any noise or aggression towards Mia

Today Mia got a fright from another dog and when she jumped Lucy jumped on her, pinned her to the floor and attacked her - Mia is back from the vets and will prob loose a canine tooth and has some nasty puncture wounds
Lucy jumped with no warning, although she was quiet around Mia it was not because she was calm it was because she was being punished for showing how unhappy she was
Her owner thought because she was quiet she was safe off the lead, Mia was on the lead because although I know she has (or had) improved she still had a long way to go and was unpredictable.

Thankyou Cesar, now where do I send the bill again?? Oh of course I cant cos of course she shouldnt have used his methods at home should she?

As far as I am concerned, so does CC, Ramble. I have to say I have never been aware of her lack of explanation. I guess her latest posts have been lacking in quantitative discussion because clearly she has reached, or is getting very near to, the end of her tether. Clearly, she loves her dogs ... like all of us ... and clearly ... like all of us ... she would never do anything to harm them. But she - like Tink, and other CM supporters - have been browbeaten, harangued, bullied and verbally assaulted by several Dogsey members ... naming no names ... just because she likes CM's methods. As I do.

CC : I can't PM you, because you seem to be no longer available for that facility, so I shall here in public just ignore certain people - you know who they are - I know I'm one to talk because I have risen to the bait myself many times, but it really is best not to. I don't blame you one bit, because it is so irritating to be constantly told you are cruel because you are a CM fan.

I agree totally that the crux of the matter is one of differing interpretations of what we see. As you say, most of us have watched the CM' programs but we don't all see the same thing.

You say that "most of us" don't see a person that clearly loves dogs or someone who used kind methods. Who is 'most of us' ? In my experience 'most of us' see quite clearly a compassionate dog lover with a superb ability to relate to dogs and to teach their owners to raise stable, balanced dogs.



If you think you see CM choking dogs then you'd be crazy to use his methods. That would be cruel.

The closest I've ever come to seeing anyone choking a dog wasn't on telly but in real life. Dogs pulling on the lead! I know a few people with labs that are particularly bad for that. The dogs will go blue in the tongue and make awful choking noises. I'm sure they do themselves damage. Although the dog is doing it to itself I think it is cruel to let it continue. Although some people really do struggle to stop dogs pulling. One method that is popular is to simply stop moving when the dog starts to pull. Just act like a tree and let the dog pull and choke as much as he wants. The idea is that he'll learn that if he stops pulling he'll be rewarded by being allowed to go forward. Is that cruel? Letting the dog choke itself? Peoples opinions will no doubt vary on that one. It's not a problem I've had to deal with so I don't have a firm opinion.



What the vast majority of us do not understand is how people such as yourself can read things into events that simply aren't there.

Stalemate.

See how futile this line of discussion is?

I reiterate, I've found the CM shows helpful and I've used a lot of the methods that he demonstrates (I've already explained the kind of thing that's worked for us). These approaches worked where bog-standard 'positive training methods' led to problems. Everything we do is fully compatible with positive training methods - in fact, all the steps we have taken were recommended by more than one so-called 'positive trainer'. They basically agreed with the cornerstones of what CM teaches (or perhaps I should say what 'the vast majority of us' hear/see him teaching - I accept that 'the vast majority of you see something very different ).

The trainers that I work with approve of the methods I'm using - although they don't know that I'm getting it from the CM show. They think I'm following their advice, but I find CM has a much better understanding of this kind of thing and puts it across in a way that I find easy to grasp. Whereas CM puts the relationship between dog and owner at the center of everything - a foundation so to speak, most training classes, books etc deal with training first (i.e. teaching tricks and commands). The relationship (rules, boundaries, limitations etc) seems only to be looked at as an afterthought if problems develop. In MY experience with MY dogs this is back to front. (I wouldn't be so obnoxious and self-opinionated to assume or suggest that what works for me and my dogs is at all relevant to anyone else. I'm not making recommending to others - just giving feedback on what's worked well for us).

Please Jackbox, you make me laugh. I like to stir up a good fight do I and you; you are a little sunbeam, full of happy, sweet things to say, like hell you are!!!!

Don't like my posts, then take your own advice and switch off or press ignore. If my posts are hitting a bit of a nerve, then perhaps you are in denial of the downright disgusting way some of you are behaving towards the "pros"

As far as I am concerned, so does CC, Ramble. I have to say I have never been aware of her lack of explanation. I guess her latest posts have been lacking in quantitative discussion because clearly she has reached, or is getting very near to, the end of her tether. .

As far as I am concerned, so does CC, Ramble. I have to say I have never been aware of her lack of explanation. I guess her latest posts have been lacking in quantitative discussion because clearly she has reached, or is getting very near to, the end of her tether. Clearly, she loves her dogs ... like all of us ... and clearly ... like all of us ... she would never do anything to harm them. But she - like Tink, and other CM supporters - have been browbeaten, harangued, bullied and verbally assaulted by several Dogsey members ... naming no names ... just because she likes CM's methods. As I do.

CC : I can't PM you, because you seem to be no longer available for that facility, so I shall here in public just ignore certain people - you know who they are - I know I'm one to talk because I have risen to the bait myself many times, but it really is best not to. I don't blame you one bit, because it is so irritating to be constantly told you are cruel because you are a CM fan.

I suppose one way CM could be 'seen to be improving' to the unwary is to have programs/videos which could be considered contentious removed from the NG website.

I notice some people have mentioned videos which seem to have disappeared from NG . I was looking for one I posted about in another thread , that too seems to have vanished .

If I remember correctly it was about a little white terrier who jumped on the sofa to bark at people passing by the window. CMs method of correcting this behaviour was to asserted his dominance by picking the little dog up by the throat with one hand leaving his legs to dangle.

Hi Ya, Gnasher



Like I've said before Gnasher, you don't seem to realise just how much patience you have. I have patience with children and animals but that's where it ends