Quote Gnasher
As you all know, Shaun Ellis has started to come on to the Cry Wolf website to answer our questions.
Questions on what, dogs or wolves ? Hasn't he just put his dogs up for sale because he acquired them before finding out if his new venture was feasible and the premises he intended to use to house them were suitable, mmm hardly someone I would go to for advice on dogs.

I have just read something very interesting on there that Shaun says about alpha dogs/wolves. Firstly, he says that true alphas are extremely rare in both dogs and wolves,

There are no alphas in dogs , how many dogs has your friend SE observed for long periods in large numbers. I spent years working 7 days a week in large kennels, in one we had paddocks where 25 dogs would all go at once . There would be the occasional scuffles between different dogs but there were no alphas or betas, all dogs were equal. The humans weren't alphas either, they were the ones with the larger brains and power of reason who dished out the food and training.

betas are by far and away the most common. Fine so far, I knew this already from his lecture, books etc. He then went on to say something very interesting about CM. A Cry-Wolfer had posted the video clip of CM with Shadow, the wolf cross, where CM gives Shadow an unnecessarily hard nudge with his foot - in this instance, I would describe it as a kick - and had asked Shaun if he thought CM was using too much force.

I agree the dog was kicked in the behind with a back kick, unnecessary ..

Shaun said that the manner in which CM had behaved towards Shadow was that of a high ranking Beta - a Beta Enforcer. In other words, he used too much force.
More mumbo jumbo and nothing to do with 'betas', bully is the more appropriate word here, using strength and a tight collar to cut off a dogs air supply to make it submit.
Shaun is saying that, as alpha, we humans should not act as the Beta Enforcer but just as the alpha wolf would act in the wolf pack. Alphas do not dish out discipline, the Beta Enforcers do (except in very extreme circumstances).

So we should act as alphas who do not dish out discipline , if we are the alphas where are the beta enforcers , are these the dogs who should dish out the discipline , tell me what kind of discipline do dogs dish out to each other then? .

A good alpha does not use force. Absolutely, I have never used force on either Hal or Tai.

A good trainer and owner doesn't use force, nothing to do with being Alpha...

This explains Hal's reaction when OH smacked Hal for growling at him. It was the worst possible thing that he could have done, because he was not acting as Alpha Male, but as Beta Enforcer. This is not the rank that you want to present when handling your dog, you want to present as Alpha ... calm, assertive Alpha, not aggressive pain inflicting Beta Enforcer ! This is why training with force does not work, as if we needed to be told.
It was the worse thing he could have done because he is the human with a brain who should know better than to smack a dog for giving a warning, nothing to do with being Alpha.

This has led me on to think about Hal being an alpha. And how for the first 9 years of his life, we really left him to his own devices. We taught him the basic obedience ... sit, lie down, stay ... but his recall was total crap and usually non-existent ! However, in the last year of his life when I started to use CM's techniques on him, there is no shadow of a doubt, they did work, although his recall was never perfect, more of a meander back towards you, but it was a recall nonetheless, it wasn't a total ignore as used to happen ! And I managed to stop him chasing and killing next door's chickens when they escaped out onto the set aside.
So were we right to leave him pretty much to his own devices up to 9 ? In the absence of not understanding what else to do, I think the answer is yes. However, a modified approach to the CM model definitely worked, and worked wonders. As with Shadow, had CM whacked him like that with his foot, Hal would at the very least have growled and turned his mouth on him, he wouldn't have actually bitten. So I am left still utterly convinced that we should all be Alpha to our dogs, never Beta Enforcer, and depending on the rank of your dog, use full on CM techniques, or modified, using your own judgement as to your dog's rank.

And even more than before, I think I now believe that although we must be alpha to our dogs, we do have to bear in mind THEIR rank amongst their own kind ... the rank they were born with. This is what CM is not doing, he is not making allowance for the natural rank of the dog.

I am amazed that after years of domestication people still think of dogs as wolves, I am convinced it is wishful thinking on behalf of some.

If you don`t mind me saying so, that is the biggest pile of BS masquerading as canine behavioural science I`ve ever seen.

And that's not me getting arsey because you don't agree with me, it's because it will become so boring for everyone else ! I have my views to which I am entitled, you have your's to which you are entitled. I am very much enjoying our debate, but not sure whether anyone else is !!

I just about disagree with most that you have said as well Mini !! Like you, I too am amazed ... amazed that people cannot grasp the simple fact that dogs are domesticated wolves, the direct descendents of wolves. Hip hip hooray !! I am thrilled by this fact, it is not wishful thinking at all, it is there in the DNA for goodness sake !! How can you deny science ?? I am amazed at the ARROGANCE of some human beings that they 1) deny DNA and 2) ignore the science and the evidence that is right there in front of their eyes !!

Dogs know they are wolves ...

I just about disagree with most that you have said as well Mini !! Like you, I too am amazed ... amazed that people cannot grasp the simple fact that dogs are domesticated wolves, the direct descendents of wolves. Hip hip hooray !! I am thrilled by this fact, it is not wishful thinking at all, it is there in the DNA for goodness sake !! How can you deny science ?? I am amazed at the ARROGANCE of some human beings that they 1) deny DNA and 2) ignore the science and the evidence that is right there in front of their eyes !!

Dogs know they are wolves ... they tell us every day of their lives, if some of us would only open our eyes and listen. When a dog chases a stick, what do you think he is doing? Wasting his precious energy just for fun? Of course not ! He is HUNTING !! That stick symbolises a nice juicy snowshoe hare, and when the dog has "caught" the stick, he will then "kill" it by savagely chewing it into tiny pieces ... this is one of Tai's favourite games, Hunt the Stick ! When we go out for a walk, what are we doing? We are going HUNTING, which is why dogs get so excited usually when we start to pull on our boots and put on our coats.

I wish I could make you see, make you understand Mini, I really do. I feel so frustrated when I can't find the right words to explain. Anyway no worries, because I for one am enjoying the debate !!

Dogs never "just bite" ... there is always a reason for it, and it is usually because the human cannot or will not properly read the signs the dog is trying to give out.

I so totally disagree with you virtually on everything you say about dogs and wolves that I am not sure how we can have a sensible dialogue ! And that's not me getting arsey because you don't agree with me, it's because it will become so boring for everyone else ! I have my views to which I am entitled, you have your's to which you are entitled. I am very much enjoying our debate, but not sure whether anyone else is !!

I'm confused Promethean. Shaun Ellis says that alphas are very very rare, in both dogs and wolves, so not sure of the point you are making.

that's your opinion Claire and Daisy. I happen to believe that when a species shares the same DNA, they are actually in fact the same species. As far as I am concerned, my dog, your dog, everyone's dog is a direct descendent of the wolf, just as we are the direct descendents of hunter gatherers or cave men.

In the wild, they run around in packs. They work together, play together, and sleep together. Ba

Dogs are hardwired to follow the pack leader.

This doesn't mean, however, that they do not try to take control occasionally.

It is important that people become the dog leader so that there dog does not. When you do not take the role, thier dog will assume that he is the one that should take the role and will start to run your entire family.

Being the pack leader is not as difficult as it sounds, and will actually make your dog love and respect you even more.

This view of the dog as an usurper goes against all we know about them.

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